Shameless Science

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Prabhupada: There is such proposition that he should exist, he should not exist. Then there must be some authority to give such order. That is answered in Bhagavad-gita. Krishna says: mayadhyakshena [Bhagavad-gita 9.10], "Under My superintendence, nature is working."

Svarup Damodar: He also says that the species are not created independently. They say it is descended from, one after another.

Prabhupada: So, if there is no question of independence, then how, abruptly, he can begin from a certain species? You must explain wherefrom this species came into existence.

Svarup Damodar: There are so many books on Darwin's theory. In the library, if one goes there are hundreds of volumes of books on Darwin's theory.

Prabhupada: They have accepted or protested?

Svarup Damodar: Mostly they accept and there are some who are also very critical, what he's saying is really untenable. But those are very few. Mostly, most books are supporting.

Karandhara: Recently, there was an issue that some people wanted that the theory that God created the earth and the species to be taught in schools along with Darwin's theory.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: But it was defeated because the scientists said: "If we make such a statement in our schools, everyone will take us as fools."

Prabhupada: What is that? I could not follow.

Karandhara: A group of, a group of people wanted that in school they should also teach that God created the earth and the people...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Karandhara: Not just say that it was created by chance, random biology. But scientists objected, said: "We cannot say that God created the earth because then everyone will take us as fools." And they defeated the measure. The scientists said "Everyone knows the earth is just created by biological chemistry. If we say that God created the earth, everyone will think us as fools."

Prabhupada: The biology, chemistry, why don't you create? The biology and chemistry has advanced so much. Why don't you create? What is their answer?

Karandhara: In the future.

Prabhupada: That is their foolishness. Why future? If it is already created, biology and chemistry, and you know the process, why don't you create it by chemistry, biology? Biology, chemistry is the origin of life. So the chemistry, biology's so much advanced. Why they cannot create life? When the crucial point is touched, they say: "We shall do it in future." Why future? If it is already done at present, why future? What is this?

Svarup Damodar: They say they'll be doing in the future.

Prabhupada: That is nonsense. Future, that is not science. "Trust no future, however pleasant." This is the word. What is this? Everyone will say future. "Trust no future, however pleasant. You may think it is very pleasurable. Why future? If you say that the biology, chemistry is the beginning of this life, so you are now so much advanced. Why don't you create? Then what is the meaning of your advancement? You're talking nonsense.

Karandhara: They always say they're right on the verge.

Prabhupada: That is also the future, in a different way. You have to accept that you do not know still what is the truth. You are expecting in future. That, that is the proof that your knowledge is imperfect. Why future?

Svarup Damodar: Because their present knowledge cannot...

Prabhupada: It is, it is something like, giving post-dated cheque. I pay you one lakh of rupees, post-dated. Although I have no money,... What is the value of that cheque? Will anybody accept that cheque? "Oh, I have received the money." That is foolishness. Why future? You are talking of future, and you are talking of perfectness at present. What is this nonsense? You are claiming that your science is perfect, and, at the same time, when practical example wanted, you say; "I shall do it." The same example. I am saying I am millions, owner of millions of dollars. And you ask me: "Give me some payment." "Yes, I give you post-dated cheque." Will you accept? At present, if you give me five dollar, I see something tangible. And you're talking of big, big words, but you'll pay me in the future. So is it very sanguine proposal? And I am to accept it? So what kind of intelligent man I am also? You cannot produce even a grass by biological chemistry. You cannot do anything. Still you are claiming: "It is produced of chemistry, biology." What is this nonsense? Nobody questions?

Who wrote the laws?

Karandhara: Even it's produced by chemistry, there's laws...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: There's laws to those chemical reactions. They never consider who makes the laws?

Prabhupada: Then? What is this? As soon as there is law, it must be considered that somebody made the law.

Karandhara: It's just a thief's mentality.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Karandhara: If a thief comes on something valuable, he does not think who owns this. He simply thinks how he'll steal it.

Prabhupada: That is thief's business.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So they are all thieves.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: So how we, a sane man can trust a thief? A sane man cannot trust a thief. There are so many things. They could not produce even a grass, even a small plant in the biology, chemistry laboratory, and still they're claiming it is product of biology, chemistry. What is this nonsenses. What kind of scientists they are?

Locana: We couldn't even choose when we were born.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Locana: So where is the question of control?

If that's how it happened then, why don't we see it happening now?

Svarup Damodar: That is why, in the ultimate analysis, the geologists, mostly when they trace the origin of life, they say everything started from matter. Living matters came out from non-living matters.

Prabhupada: Where it is coming now? It came in the past and not in the now, and not at present? Where an ant is coming from this dust? Is there any proof? Even an ant does not come.

Svarup Damodar: In fact, there are several theories like that, about the origin of life. And they say starting from matter, all the living matters came from nonliving.

Prabhupada: That's all right. Why it is not coming now, rascal? I kick on your face with boots. Why it is not coming now?

Karandhara: If it happened before, it should happen now.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: And it is so amazing that people believe it.

Prabhupada: That means fools.

Brahma: The blind leading the blind.

Prabhupada: Yes. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [Srimad-Bhagavatam 7.5.31]. All rascals, mudhah. Our simple formula is: Anyone who is not Krishna conscious, he's a rascal. Never mind what he is. We immediately reject him, a rascal. Our simple formula. And actually they're rascals. They're talking like rascals, childish, that life came from matter. Prove it. That future. What is this? I am very rich man. And as soon as I ask you: "Give me some money." "Oh, yes, I'll give you in future." What is this?

Devotee: Bluff.

Prabhupada: We shall make vigorous propaganda against all this rascalism. That is our Krishna consciousness movement. Mudhah. Challenge them.

Brahmananda: Saying "In future", that is a bluff.

Prabhupada: Bluff. That is a bluff. When that future will come? That they do not know. That is another bluff. And still, they're proud of advancement of knowledge. Still, they're talking of future. And what is your advancement? In the past, you say, in the past the life came out of matter. Why you again say in the future? What is this theory? You have already committed that the life began from matter. That is past, "began." Then why you say now again "future?" Then where is the beginning? Eh? Why this contradiction? If life began from matter, that is past. That is in the past. Then why do you say again future? What is the answer? Is it not contradiction?

Svarup Damodar: Yeah. That misses the whole point.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is whole, wholesale nonsense, wholesale nonsense. You are expecting the fact in the future, still you say it began in the past. Just see the contradiction.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: So contradiction means childish. Contradiction is not scientist. Contradiction is childish.

Svarup Damodar: They started from a point where...

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarup Damodar: They started from a point where there's no background. There's no...

Prabhupada: No background. That is another thing. And still, they cannot prove it at present. They're expecting to prove it in the future.

Karandhara: They say: "It happened in the past, but we'll do it in the future."

Prabhupada: What is this nonsense?

Karandhara: But who did it in the past?

Prabhupada: And how, how he knows that it began in the past? If he cannot prove it in the present?

Svarup Damodar: They assume it.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarup Damodar: They assume it.

Prabhupada: Assume, everyone can assume. That is not science. Assuming, then, everyone can suggest something like. You can suggest something, I can suggest something. What is the proof? We can prove that life begins from life. Just like father begets a child. Father is living and the child is living. That we can prove. But where is your proof that the father is a stone and the son is a child? Where is your proof? We say that life begins from life. The original life is Krishna. That we can prove. But you say that life begins from matter. Where is this evidence that a child is born out of stone.

Karandhara: They say there's a missing link.

Prabhupada: A missing link? Then I kick on your face. You're missing this kick. Now learn it. Nonsense. Here is the missing point. Just learn it. Write vigorous articles to kick on the face of these rascals. All of you. [Addressing the scientists] You have got so much advanced laboratories, advanced knowledge. You do not... even you are defying the authority of God. You have become so great. And you cannot prove that life is coming out of matter. That you are leaving aside for future. And I have to believe such a rascal? Do you think it is nice? You are talking all nonsense, and I have to believe you?

What is that missing component?

Karandhara: They say they have almost proof that some acids, they make some acids and it's almost like an animal. Just about, not quite, but almost. They say if they isolate certain amino acids, it's almost like...

Svarup Damodar: They're almost like components of protein.

Karandhara: They're almost like little animals, little cells. Not quite but almost. So they say that because that matter is almost like a little animal, therefore there must be just one little missing link, one chemical you can add, they're trying to isolate it.

Prabhupada: That missing link is kicking you. That missing... Here, you say, you take this missing link.

Svarup Damodar: They are trying to make babies in a test tube.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Svarup Damodar: In a few years.

Prabhupada: What is that test tube?

Svarup Damodar: In the laboratory, the chemical laboratory, biological laboratory, so they'll take the combinations of the male and the female....

Prabhupada: Then where is the test tube? It is taken from the living entities.

Svarup Damodar: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then where is the test tube? Test tube is a place for combination. As it is combined in the womb. So that is not advancement.

Karandhara: The womb's already doing it very nicely.

Prabhupada: Nicely. What is your credit?

Svarup Damodar: They want to, they want to be very proud that they'll be able to do it outside the womb.

Prabhupada: But that's all right. At least you are not able to do it now. But where is the credit because it is already being done.

Devotee: Yes.

Prabhupada: In the nature's test tube.

Brahmananda: They're just doing it in a more difficult and expensive way.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: When somebody does like that, people will give him Nobel prize.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is stated in the Bhagavata: shva-vid-varahoshdra-kharaih samstutah purushah pashuh [Srimad-Bhagavatam 2.3.19]. A big animal is being praised by dogs, and hogs, camel, monkeys. So they're getting Nobel Prize from dogs, hogs, camels. They're not getting Nobel Prize from any sane man. That is stated. Shva-vid. Shva means dog. Vid-varaha means the stool-eater, hog. Shva-vid -varaha ushdra. Ushdra means camel. And kharah means ass. So they're being praised by these classes of animal. They're not human being. If anyone gives Nobel Prize to such rascals, that means the man, the committee, who is giving the Nobel Prize to him, they are composition of these animals, dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They are not human being. According to Bhagavata. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. I think I have explained it.

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: They are not... We don't accept them as human beings. We accept them as animals. So one animal is being praised by other animals. That's all. And that is no credit. That means if, at the present, if anyone gets Nobel Prize, that means he's fool number one. That is the... Because the other animals are praising. No human being.

Devotee: Yes. yes.

Svarup Damodar: But that is the ultimate aim for the scientists.

Prabhupada: Eh? Scientists means they are rascals. They're talking nonsense. And because they are putting the matter in some jugglery of words, other fools are being misled.

Brahmananda: That Nobel Prize, the Nobel, he's the one who discovered the dynamite which has caused so much destruction in the world. But he made a big fortune. So all that money, he's now pushing for...

Prabhupada: Another misfortune.

Brahmananda: Yes.

Prabhupada: He created some misfortune, and he spent the money for creating further, more misfortunes. What can he do more? Hare Krishna Hare Krishna...

Brahmananda: It says in the Gita that the demoniac, they do acts, horrible acts which are meant to destroy the world.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Ugra-karma. Kshayaya jagato 'hitah. It is meant for destruction and inauspicity of the world. This is their business.

Locana: If scientists really believed that they were just made out of matter, then there wouldn't be any question of one scientist's thinking he's a person better than another person cause there wouldn't be any individuality, if they believed everything was just atoms and matter.

Prabhupada: Hmm? Now here is a matter. Why leaves and twigs are not coming. Formerly it was coming. What is the difference?

Locana: The spirit soul.

Prabhupada: The same, it has grown green, and vegetation. Now the same wood is there. Why it is not coming now? Let scientists explain this.

Svarup Damodar: That simply shows how ignorant the understanding is.

Prabhupada: Therefore we say rascals, simply.

Karandhara: Well they would say the chemical composition has been changed.

Prabhupada: All right, give the chemicals. You are now advanced in knowing the chemicals. Inject the chemicals.

Brahmananda: Knowledge means that you have to be able to demonstrate it.

Prabhupada: Yes. That... Otherwise what...

Brahmananda: Otherwise, its' just...

Prabhupada: Acharana. It is called acharana. Apani achari bhakti karila prachara.

Brahmananda: They should be able to demonstrate it in a laboratory.

Prabhupada: Yes. Science says that: "observation and experiment." That is science. You observe how things are going on. And you experiment. Then it is perfect. But you cannot make experiment, you simply observe, that, a child also can also observe, and he can speak something nonsense. Just like in our childhood, we were observing the gramophone box, that within the box there is some man who's singing. And electric fan. I was thinking: There must be some ghost. Yes. These kind of suggestions...

Svarup Damodar: The... In the first time when learn about the difference between the living and the nonliving, this is one of the very popular questions when we start biology: What is the difference between living and the nonliving? So they answer there are several points to differentiate between the two. And they say the living can move and the nonliving cannot grow or cannot move.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: And the living can reproduce like themselves.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Svarup Damodar: The nonliving is not.

Prabhupada: No. No.

Svarup Damodar: But they never talk about the soul, the nature of the soul, the consciousness existing within the living.

Prabhupada: No, because there is consciousness, therefore the living being can create. Because I am conscious, I am thinking of marrying, begetting children. Because I am conscious. And because there is no consciousness, therefore this wood cannot think that he'll beget. The original consciousness, in the Vedas, it is said: eko bahu shyam. God says: "I'll become many," so because there is consciousness, therefore He's saying that: "I shall become many." Without consciousness, there is no question of by-products. Now they are supplying water to these green trees. Why they do not supply to that wood, and get it green?

Svarup Damodar: Because from experience they know that it is not going to grow.

Prabhupada: That means nonsense, that there is something else. Because the same tree, now it is growing, watering, but when it will be dead, you pour water... The medicine is the same. Why it is not doing now, and why it was doing formerly? Then what is the thing that is lacking in it?

Brahmananda: Similarly, if there's a dead body and they just add some chemicals, that doesn't necessarily mean it will come alive again.

Prabhupada: No. No. Chemicals are already there. If you say that the chemical is the cause of life, that chemicals are there. Because other lives are coming. How do you say the chemical is wanting?

Brahmananda: Don't they say that when death means chemicals are gone...

Svarup Damodar: No.

Brahmananda: ...breakdown?

Svarup Damodar: The life, the life energy, the heart...

Prabhupada: No, no. Life energy, what is the cause of that life energy? Chemicals.

Brahmananda: Chemicals remain.

Prabhupada: Yes. So that chemical is already there. Life energy is there. Because from the body, thousands of microbes are coming out. They're living entities. So you cannot say that the life energy is lacking there. No, it is already there. How can you say that life energy not there? Otherwise, how other life is coming. Not only one, thousands. So how do you say the life energy's lacking there? What do you think, Karandhara Prabhu?

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: The life energy's already there.

Karandhara: Yes.

Prabhupada: You cannot say the life energy's not there.

Svarup Damodar: But the life energy for the dead body...

Prabhupada: For the dead body means, that is a particular dead body. It is not the life energy. That is individuality. The life-energy—producing chemicals are already there. But that particular individual living entity has left. Just like I live in a room. So I leave this room. You cannot find me. But there are many other living entities there. There are ants, there are spider, there are so many. So that does not mean because I have left that room, it is lacking the accommodations. The accommodation is there. Other living entities are living there. I have left. I am individual. I have left. Therefore the individual soul is proved.

Karandhara: They do not know how that life energy comes or goes. We're coming into a body and leaving a body.

Prabhupada: Yes. That means that is individual. That individual person is missing. He has left it.

Karandhara: Generally they conclude that it's an electro-chemical energy in the heart and that...

Prabhupada: Whatever it may be. That individual person has left. Other things are intact. Otherwise, how the living entities are coming out?

Karandhara: They don't think that if it's simply a chemical, why cannot they just get a chemical that's a person.

Prabhupada: No. We refute that. The chemicals are already there. Otherwise how living entities are coming out? We don't say that chemical is missing. Because the same theory: conservation of energy. The chemicals, the energy-producing, that is already there. It may be in different form, but the life-producing-energy is there. Otherwise how the other living entities are coming out?

Karandhara: In a living entity in the living body, there are so many things, personality...

Prabhupada: They have got personality, all the living entities coming out, the microbes. They have got their personality. If they're moving in this way, you stop. They'll move in this way. "There is some block. Let me go this side." So there is personality.

Karandhara: But in the dead body, there's no personality.

Prabhupada: That means that individual person has left. That is the proof, that is the proof of individual soul. Just like there are so many plants of the same species. One is dead. That individual plant is dead, but other species are living. It is not extinct. How can you say the species is extinct? How you can say? Darwin's forefather might be extinct. But the monkeys are there.

Svarup Damodar: But in the same living body, Srila Prabhupada, there are innumerable small living entities. Like the cells themselves. They are living also.

Prabhupada: Yes. In my body, there are millions of living entities. In my intestines, there are so many worms. If they, if they become stronger, then whatever you eat, they eat it. You don't take any benefit out of it. Therefore those who are full with these hookworms, they eat very much, but they do not grow. They become lean and thin. But they are very much hungry because these living entities are eating, and he's feeling hungry. And he's eating, but he cannot take any benefit out of it. He's lean and thin. So already there are thousands and millions of living entities in my body. But they are individual, I am individual. I may be proprietor of this garden, but there are many millions of living entities living in this garden. Similarly I may be proprietor of this body, but many millions of living entities are living in my body. I know that. Otherwise, how hookworms coming out of my intestines? So you cannot say that the chemical is lacking. Chemical is not lacking.

Svarup Damodar: So when you take Krishna prasädam, the living entities which are within our body, they're also taking prasadam?

Prabhupada: Yes. You are very benevolent. You take Krishna prasadam for others.

Brahmananda: Welfare work.

Prabhupada: Yes. That you can do without taking Krishna prasadam. Because you have got stool and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. The individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino 'smin. He's simply changing different body under different circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost. Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the garments. This is perfect theory.

Scientist's knowledge as fallible as himself

Svarup Damodar: So when they think nicely, there's no reason why they don't accept it.

Prabhupada: But they are not nice men. They are rascals. They're not even gentlemen. A gentleman will have some shyness, some shame. But they're shameless. They cannot answer properly, still, shamelessly, they claim they're scientists.

Brahmananda: They're expert bluffers.

Prabhupada: They're not even gentlemen. At least, I take them like that. They're talking that in the past, from matter, living force came, and when I ask them: "Why don't you produce?", "Oh, that we shall do in the future." Why? You have already experienced in the past, and you cannot do it, and you are leaving the matter for future. So they're shameless. Not even ordinary gentlemen. Shameless. That in talking all this nonsense. That is my charge. What do you think?

Svarup Damodar: Yes. They're...

Prabhupada: Shameless. Shameless men. We cannot say even gentlemen. A gentleman will be shameful, ashamed to speak something nonsense.

Svarup Damodar: They do not think.

Prabhupada: That means they are not human being. A human being thinks twice before saying anything. Animals.

Karandhara: And all the innocent, they're all misled.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is, that is our protest. That you remain a rascal at home. Why you are misleading others?

Svarup Damodar: They're spoiling themselves, but, not only that, they want to spoil others also.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is their business. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB 7.5.31]. Krishna so easily simplifies the matter. They'll not accept it. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptir... [Bg. 2.13]. In two lines, he solves the whole biological problems. In two lines. That is knowledge. Minimum words, maximum solution. That is knowledge. And talking nonsense and no meaning. Books, volumes of books, talking nonsense and there is no meaning. Is that knowledge?

Svarup Damodar: That's ignorance.

Prabhupada: Ignorance.

Brahmananda: Like the wolves, they bay: "Ohhh, ooow."

Prabhupada: The frogs.

Brahmananda: The frogs, croaking, yes.

Prabhupada: Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh... That's all. They're thinking: "Oh, we're talking very nicely." The result is the snake, they find out here is a frog. Pop. Finish. So this ca ca canh... scientists, means when death comes, oh, everything's finished. That's all. All their ca ca canh, scientific investigation, finished. And he becomes a dog, cat or something like that. That's all. Therefore mudhah. They do not know that "I have got this valuable life, human form of life, advanced intelligence. I'll have to take lesson from Krishna, and make my life successful." They do not know that. Ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh. And then die, and become again. When he dies, there is no question of science and talking nonsense. That is under the grip of nature. "Yes, come on. Enter this body. Finished." Just like the rascal rogue. He's very much proud of his strength. And the police comes arrest: "Come on. Enter this custody. Finished." It is like that.

All these scientists, they discover so many things. Why they did not discover something that he would not die? He would not become old? Where is that discovery? They will say: "Yes, in future." One man is kicking on your face, and you are saying: "Yes, in future, when I shall become strong, I shall kick him." But you are, my dear sir, being kicked now. What you are doing now? "Yes, I'm getting strength by your kicking." So you all write very strongly, vehemently. Even it is little offensive, still these rascals should be taught good lesson. Yes. They're misleading. Godlessness. As soon as you say "God created", immediately they become arrogant. That is our protest. If they accept God, then we give them all credit. That's all right. Otherwise zero. We don't deprecate their intention of advancement in knowledge. But we simply protest against their defying the authority of God. That is our point.

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