Prabhupada: There is such proposition that
he should exist, he should not exist. Then there must be some authority
to give such order. That is answered in Bhagavad-gita.
mayadhyakshena [Bhagavad-gita 9.10], "Under My
superintendence, nature is working."
Svarup Damodar: He also says
that the species are not created independently. They say it is
descended from, one after another.
Prabhupada: So, if there is
no question of independence, then how, abruptly, he can begin from a
certain species? You must explain wherefrom this species came into
Svarup Damodar: There are so
many books on Darwin's theory. In the library, if one goes there are
hundreds of volumes of books on Darwin's theory.
Prabhupada: They have
accepted or protested?
Svarup Damodar: Mostly they
accept and there are some who are also very critical, what he's saying
is really untenable. But those are very few. Mostly, most books are
Karandhara: Recently, there
was an issue that some people wanted that the theory that God created
the earth and the species to be taught in schools along with Darwin's
Karandhara: But it was
defeated because the scientists said: "If we make such a statement in
our schools, everyone will take us as fools."
Prabhupada: What is that? I
could not follow.
Karandhara: A group of, a
group of people wanted that in school they should also teach that God
created the earth and the people...
Karandhara: Not just say that
it was created by chance, random biology. But scientists objected,
said: "We cannot say that God created the earth because then everyone
will take us as fools." And they defeated the measure. The scientists
said "Everyone knows the earth is just created by biological chemistry.
If we say that God created the earth, everyone will think us as fools."
Prabhupada: The biology,
chemistry, why don't you create? The biology and chemistry has advanced
so much. Why don't you create? What is their answer?
Karandhara: In the future.
Prabhupada: That is their
foolishness. Why future? If it is already created, biology and
chemistry, and you know the process, why don't you create it by
chemistry, biology? Biology, chemistry is the origin of life. So the
chemistry, biology's so much advanced. Why they cannot create life?
When the crucial point is touched, they say: "We shall do it in
future." Why future? If it is already done at present, why future? What
Svarup Damodar: They say
they'll be doing in the future.
Prabhupada: That is nonsense.
Future, that is not science. "Trust no future, however pleasant." This
is the word. What is this? Everyone will say future. "Trust no future,
however pleasant. You may think it is very pleasurable. Why future? If
you say that the biology, chemistry is the beginning of this life, so
you are now so much advanced. Why don't you create? Then what is the
meaning of your advancement? You're talking nonsense.
Karandhara: They always say
they're right on the verge.
Prabhupada: That is also the
future, in a different way. You have to accept that you do not know
still what is the truth. You are expecting in future. That, that is the
proof that your knowledge is imperfect. Why future?
Svarup Damodar: Because their
present knowledge cannot...
Prabhupada: It is, it is
something like, giving post-dated cheque. I pay you one lakh of rupees,
post-dated. Although I have no money,... What is the value of that
cheque? Will anybody accept that cheque? "Oh, I have received the
money." That is foolishness. Why future? You are talking of future, and
you are talking of perfectness at present. What is this nonsense? You
are claiming that your science is perfect, and, at the same time, when
practical example wanted, you say; "I shall do it." The same example. I
am saying I am millions, owner of millions of dollars. And you ask me:
"Give me some payment." "Yes, I give you post-dated cheque." Will you
accept? At present, if you give me five dollar, I see something
tangible. And you're talking of big, big words, but you'll pay me in
the future. So is it very sanguine proposal? And I am to accept it? So
what kind of intelligent man I am also? You cannot produce even a grass
by biological chemistry. You cannot do anything. Still you are
claiming: "It is produced of chemistry, biology." What is this
nonsense? Nobody questions?
wrote the laws?
Karandhara: Even it's produced by
chemistry, there's laws...
Karandhara: There's laws to
those chemical reactions. They never consider who makes the laws?
Prabhupada: Then? What is
this? As soon as there is law, it must be considered that somebody made
Karandhara: It's just a
Karandhara: If a thief comes
on something valuable, he does not think who owns this. He simply
thinks how he'll steal it.
Prabhupada: That is thief's
Prabhupada: So they are all
Prabhupada: So how we, a sane
man can trust a thief? A sane man cannot trust a thief. There are so
many things. They could not produce even a grass, even a small plant in
the biology, chemistry laboratory, and still they're claiming it is
product of biology, chemistry. What is this nonsenses. What kind of
scientists they are?
Locana: We couldn't even
choose when we were born.
Locana: So where is the
question of control?
that's how it happened then, why don't we see it happening
Svarup Damodar: That is why, in the
ultimate analysis, the geologists, mostly when they trace the origin of
life, they say everything started from matter. Living matters came out
from non-living matters.
Prabhupada: Where it is
coming now? It came in the past and not in the now, and not at present?
Where an ant is coming from this dust? Is there any proof? Even an ant
does not come.
Svarup Damodar: In fact,
there are several theories like that, about the origin of life. And
they say starting from matter, all the living matters came from
Prabhupada: That's all right.
Why it is not coming now, rascal? I kick on your face with boots. Why
it is not coming now?
Karandhara: If it happened
before, it should happen now.
Svarup Damodar: And it is so
amazing that people believe it.
Prabhupada: That means fools.
blind leading the blind.
Prabhupada: Yes. Andha
yathandhair upaniyamanah [Srimad-Bhagavatam
7.5.31]. All rascals, mudhah. Our simple formula is: Anyone who
is not Krishna conscious, he's a rascal. Never mind what he is. We
immediately reject him, a rascal. Our simple formula. And actually
they're rascals. They're talking like rascals, childish, that life came
from matter. Prove it. That future. What is this? I am very rich man.
And as soon as I ask you: "Give me some money." "Oh, yes, I'll give you
in future." What is this?
Prabhupada: We shall make
vigorous propaganda against all this rascalism. That is our Krishna
consciousness movement. Mudhah. Challenge them.
Brahmananda: Saying "In
future", that is a bluff.
Prabhupada: Bluff. That is a
bluff. When that future will come? That they do not know. That is
another bluff. And still, they're proud of advancement of knowledge.
Still, they're talking of future. And what is your advancement? In the
past, you say, in the past the life came out of matter. Why you again
say in the future? What is this theory? You have already committed that
the life began from matter. That is past, "began." Then why you say now
again "future?" Then where is the beginning? Eh? Why this
contradiction? If life began from matter, that is past. That is in the
past. Then why do you say again future? What is the answer? Is it not
Svarup Damodar: Yeah. That
misses the whole point.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is
whole, wholesale nonsense, wholesale nonsense. You are expecting the
fact in the future, still you say it began in the past. Just see the
Prabhupada: So contradiction
means childish. Contradiction is not scientist. Contradiction is
Svarup Damodar: They started
from a point where...
Svarup Damodar: They started
from a point where there's no background. There's no...
Prabhupada: No background.
That is another thing. And still, they cannot prove it at present.
They're expecting to prove it in the future.
Karandhara: They say: "It
happened in the past, but we'll do it in the future."
Prabhupada: What is this
Karandhara: But who did it in
Prabhupada: And how, how he
knows that it began in the past? If he cannot prove it in the present?
Svarup Damodar: They assume
Svarup Damodar: They assume
Prabhupada: Assume, everyone
can assume. That is not science. Assuming, then, everyone can suggest
something like. You can suggest something, I can suggest something.
What is the proof? We can prove that life begins from life. Just like
father begets a child. Father is living and the child is living. That
we can prove. But where is your proof that the father is a stone and
the son is a child? Where is your proof? We say that life begins from
life. The original life is Krishna. That we can prove. But you say that
life begins from matter. Where is this evidence that a child is born
out of stone.
Karandhara: They say there's
a missing link.
Prabhupada: A missing link?
Then I kick on your face. You're missing this kick. Now learn it.
Nonsense. Here is the missing point. Just learn it. Write vigorous
articles to kick on the face of these rascals. All of you. [Addressing
the scientists] You have got so much advanced laboratories, advanced
knowledge. You do not... even you are defying the authority of God. You
have become so great. And you cannot prove that life is coming out of
matter. That you are leaving aside for future. And I have to believe
such a rascal? Do you think it is nice? You are talking all nonsense,
and I have to believe you?
is that missing component?
Karandhara: They say they have almost proof
that some acids, they make some acids and it's almost like an animal.
Just about, not quite, but almost. They say if they isolate certain
amino acids, it's almost like...
Svarup Damodar: They're
almost like components of protein.
Karandhara: They're almost
like little animals, little cells. Not quite but almost. So they say
that because that matter is almost like a little animal, therefore
there must be just one little missing link, one chemical you can add,
they're trying to isolate it.
Prabhupada: That missing link
is kicking you. That missing... Here, you say, you take this missing
Svarup Damodar: They are
trying to make babies in a test tube.
Svarup Damodar: In a few
Prabhupada: What is that test
Svarup Damodar: In the
laboratory, the chemical laboratory, biological laboratory, so they'll
take the combinations of the male and the female....
Prabhupada: Then where is the
test tube? It is taken from the living entities.
Svarup Damodar: Yes.
Prabhupada: Then where is the
test tube? Test tube is a place for combination. As it is combined in
the womb. So that is not advancement.
Karandhara: The womb's
already doing it very nicely.
Prabhupada: Nicely. What is
Svarup Damodar: They want to,
they want to be very proud that they'll be able to do it outside the
Prabhupada: But that's all
right. At least you are not able to do it now. But where is the credit
because it is already being done.
Prabhupada: In the nature's
Brahmananda: They're just
doing it in a more difficult and expensive way.
Svarup Damodar: When somebody
does like that, people will give him Nobel prize.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is
stated in the Bhagavata: shva-vid-varahoshdra-kharaih
samstutah purushah pashuh [Srimad-Bhagavatam
2.3.19]. A big animal is being praised by dogs, and hogs, camel,
monkeys. So they're getting Nobel Prize from dogs, hogs, camels.
They're not getting Nobel Prize from any sane man. That is stated. Shva-vid.
Shva means dog. Vid-varaha means the stool-eater,
-varaha ushdra. Ushdra means camel. And kharah
means ass. So they're being praised by these classes of animal. They're
not human being. If anyone gives Nobel Prize to such rascals, that
means the man, the committee, who is giving the Nobel Prize to him,
they are composition of these animals, dogs, hogs, camel and ass. They
are not human being. According to Bhagavata. That is
explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. I think I have
Prabhupada: They are not...
We don't accept them as human beings. We accept them as animals. So one
animal is being praised by other animals. That's all. And that is no
credit. That means if, at the present, if anyone gets Nobel Prize, that
means he's fool number one. That is the... Because the other animals
are praising. No human being.
Devotee: Yes. yes.
Svarup Damodar: But that is
the ultimate aim for the scientists.
Prabhupada: Eh? Scientists
means they are rascals. They're talking nonsense. And because they are
putting the matter in some jugglery of words, other fools are being
Brahmananda: That Nobel
Prize, the Nobel, he's the one who discovered the dynamite which has
caused so much destruction in the world. But he made a big fortune. So
all that money, he's now pushing for...
Prabhupada: He created some
misfortune, and he spent the money for creating further, more
misfortunes. What can he do more? Hare Krishna Hare Krishna...
Brahmananda: It says in the Gita
that the demoniac, they do acts, horrible acts which are meant to
destroy the world.
Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Ugra-karma.
Kshayaya jagato 'hitah. It is meant for destruction
and inauspicity of the world. This is their business.
Locana: If scientists really
believed that they were just made out of matter, then there wouldn't be
any question of one scientist's thinking he's a person better than
another person cause there wouldn't be any individuality, if they
believed everything was just atoms and matter.
Prabhupada: Hmm? Now here is
a matter. Why leaves and twigs are not coming. Formerly it was coming.
What is the difference?
Locana: The spirit soul.
Prabhupada: The same, it has
grown green, and vegetation. Now the same wood is there. Why it is not
coming now? Let scientists explain this.
Svarup Damodar: That simply
shows how ignorant the understanding is.
Prabhupada: Therefore we say
Karandhara: Well they would
say the chemical composition has been changed.
Prabhupada: All right, give
the chemicals. You are now advanced in knowing the chemicals. Inject
Brahmananda: Knowledge means
that you have to be able to demonstrate it.
Prabhupada: Yes. That...
Brahmananda: Otherwise, its'
It is called acharana. Apani achari bhakti karila
Brahmananda: They should be
able to demonstrate it in a laboratory.
Prabhupada: Yes. Science says
that: "observation and experiment." That is science. You observe how
things are going on. And you experiment. Then it is perfect. But you
cannot make experiment, you simply observe, that, a child also can also
observe, and he can speak something nonsense. Just like in our
childhood, we were observing the gramophone box, that within the box
there is some man who's singing. And electric fan. I was thinking:
There must be some ghost. Yes. These kind of suggestions...
Svarup Damodar: The... In the
first time when learn about the difference between the living and the
nonliving, this is one of the very popular questions when we start
biology: What is the difference between living and the nonliving? So
they answer there are several points to differentiate between the two.
And they say the living can move and the nonliving cannot grow or
Svarup Damodar: And the
living can reproduce like themselves.
Svarup Damodar: The nonliving
Prabhupada: No. No.
Svarup Damodar: But they
never talk about the soul, the nature of the soul, the consciousness
existing within the living.
Prabhupada: No, because there
is consciousness, therefore the living being can create. Because I am
conscious, I am thinking of marrying, begetting children. Because I am
conscious. And because there is no consciousness, therefore this wood
cannot think that he'll beget. The original consciousness, in the Vedas,
it is said: eko bahu shyam. God says: "I'll become many,"
so because there is consciousness, therefore He's saying that: "I shall
become many." Without consciousness, there is no question of
by-products. Now they are supplying water to these green trees. Why
they do not supply to that wood, and get it green?
Svarup Damodar: Because from
experience they know that it is not going to grow.
Prabhupada: That means
nonsense, that there is something else. Because the same tree, now it
is growing, watering, but when it will be dead, you pour water... The
medicine is the same. Why it is not doing now, and why it was doing
formerly? Then what is the thing that is lacking in it?
Brahmananda: Similarly, if
there's a dead body and they just add some chemicals, that doesn't
necessarily mean it will come alive again.
Prabhupada: No. No. Chemicals
are already there. If you say that the chemical is the cause of life,
that chemicals are there. Because other lives are coming. How do you
say the chemical is wanting?
Brahmananda: Don't they say
that when death means chemicals are gone...
Svarup Damodar: No.
Svarup Damodar: The life, the
life energy, the heart...
Prabhupada: No, no. Life
energy, what is the cause of that life energy? Chemicals.
Brahmananda: Chemicals remain.
Prabhupada: Yes. So that
chemical is already there. Life energy is there. Because from the body,
thousands of microbes are coming out. They're living entities. So you
cannot say that the life energy is lacking there. No, it is already
there. How can you say that life energy not there? Otherwise, how other
life is coming. Not only one, thousands. So how do you say the life
energy's lacking there? What do you think, Karandhara Prabhu?
Prabhupada: The life energy's
Prabhupada: You cannot say
the life energy's not there.
Svarup Damodar: But the life
energy for the dead body...
Prabhupada: For the dead body
means, that is a particular dead body. It is not the life energy. That
is individuality. The life-energy—producing chemicals are already
there. But that particular individual living entity has left. Just like
I live in a room. So I leave this room. You cannot find me. But there
are many other living entities there. There are ants, there are spider,
there are so many. So that does not mean because I have left that room,
it is lacking the accommodations. The accommodation is there. Other
living entities are living there. I have left. I am individual. I have
left. Therefore the individual soul is proved.
Karandhara: They do not know
how that life energy comes or goes. We're coming into a body and
leaving a body.
Prabhupada: Yes. That means
that is individual. That individual person is missing. He has left it.
Karandhara: Generally they
conclude that it's an electro-chemical energy in the heart and that...
Prabhupada: Whatever it may
be. That individual person has left. Other things are intact.
Otherwise, how the living entities are coming out?
Karandhara: They don't think
that if it's simply a chemical, why cannot they just get a chemical
that's a person.
Prabhupada: No. We refute
that. The chemicals are already there. Otherwise how living entities
are coming out? We don't say that chemical is missing. Because the same
theory: conservation of energy. The chemicals, the energy-producing,
that is already there. It may be in different form, but the
life-producing-energy is there. Otherwise how the other living entities
are coming out?
Karandhara: In a living
entity in the living body, there are so many things, personality...
Prabhupada: They have got
personality, all the living entities coming out, the microbes. They
have got their personality. If they're moving in this way, you stop.
They'll move in this way. "There is some block. Let me go this side."
So there is personality.
Karandhara: But in the dead
body, there's no personality.
Prabhupada: That means that
individual person has left. That is the proof, that is the proof of
individual soul. Just like there are so many plants of the same
species. One is dead. That individual plant is dead, but other species
are living. It is not extinct. How can you say the species is extinct?
How you can say? Darwin's forefather might be extinct. But the monkeys
Svarup Damodar: But in the
same living body, Srila Prabhupada, there are innumerable small living
entities. Like the cells themselves. They are living also.
Prabhupada: Yes. In my body,
there are millions of living entities. In my intestines, there are so
many worms. If they, if they become stronger, then whatever you eat,
they eat it. You don't take any benefit out of it. Therefore those who
are full with these hookworms, they eat very much, but they do not
grow. They become lean and thin. But they are very much hungry because
these living entities are eating, and he's feeling hungry. And he's
eating, but he cannot take any benefit out of it. He's lean and thin.
So already there are thousands and millions of living entities in my
body. But they are individual, I am individual. I may be proprietor of
this garden, but there are many millions of living entities living in
this garden. Similarly I may be proprietor of this body, but many
millions of living entities are living in my body. I know that.
Otherwise, how hookworms coming out of my intestines? So you cannot say
that the chemical is lacking. Chemical is not lacking.
Svarup Damodar: So when you
take Krishna prasädam, the living entities which are within our
body, they're also taking prasadam?
Prabhupada: Yes. You are very
benevolent. You take Krishna prasadam for others.
Brahmananda: Welfare work.
Prabhupada: Yes. That you can
do without taking Krishna prasadam. Because you have got stool
and urine within your body, and there are many germs. They're eating
that. You need not make a separate endeavor to feed them. The
individual soul is never lost. That is our philosophy. Dehino
'smin. He's simply changing different body under different
circumstances. That's all. The soul, individual soul, is never lost.
Neither he takes birth, neither he dies. He's simply changing the
garments. This is perfect theory.
knowledge as fallible as himself
Svarup Damodar: So when they think nicely,
there's no reason why they don't accept it.
Prabhupada: But they are not
nice men. They are rascals. They're not even gentlemen. A gentleman
will have some shyness, some shame. But they're shameless. They cannot
answer properly, still, shamelessly, they claim they're scientists.
Brahmananda: They're expert
Prabhupada: They're not even
gentlemen. At least, I take them like that. They're talking that in the
past, from matter, living force came, and when I ask them: "Why don't
you produce?", "Oh, that we shall do in the future." Why? You have
already experienced in the past, and you cannot do it, and you are
leaving the matter for future. So they're shameless. Not even ordinary
gentlemen. Shameless. That in talking all this nonsense. That is my
charge. What do you think?
Svarup Damodar: Yes.
Shameless men. We cannot say even gentlemen. A gentleman will be
shameful, ashamed to speak something nonsense.
Svarup Damodar: They do not
Prabhupada: That means they
are not human being. A human being thinks twice before saying anything.
Karandhara: And all the
innocent, they're all misled.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is,
that is our protest. That you remain a rascal at home. Why you are
Svarup Damodar: They're
spoiling themselves, but, not only that, they want to spoil others also.
Prabhupada: Yes. That is
their business. Andha yathandhair upaniyamanah [SB
7.5.31]. Krishna so easily simplifies the matter. They'll not accept
it. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha
dehantara-praptir... [Bg. 2.13]. In two lines, he solves the
whole biological problems. In two lines. That is knowledge. Minimum
words, maximum solution. That is knowledge. And talking nonsense and no
meaning. Books, volumes of books, talking nonsense and there is no
meaning. Is that knowledge?
Svarup Damodar: That's
Brahmananda: Like the wolves,
they bay: "Ohhh, ooow."
Prabhupada: The frogs.
Brahmananda: The frogs,
Prabhupada: Ca ca canh, ca ca
canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh... That's all. They're
thinking: "Oh, we're talking very nicely." The result is the snake,
they find out here is a frog. Pop. Finish. So this ca ca canh...
scientists, means when death comes, oh, everything's finished. That's
all. All their ca ca canh, scientific investigation, finished. And he
becomes a dog, cat or something like that. That's all. Therefore mudhah.
They do not know that "I have got this valuable life, human form of
life, advanced intelligence. I'll have to take lesson from Krishna, and
make my life successful." They do not know that. Ca ca canh, ca ca
canh, ca ca canh, ca ca canh. And then die, and become again. When he
dies, there is no question of science and talking nonsense. That is
under the grip of nature. "Yes, come on. Enter this body. Finished."
Just like the rascal rogue. He's very much proud of his strength. And
the police comes arrest: "Come on. Enter this custody. Finished." It is
All these scientists, they discover so many things. Why they did not
discover something that he would not die? He would not become old?
Where is that discovery? They will say: "Yes, in future." One man is
kicking on your face, and you are saying: "Yes, in future, when I shall
become strong, I shall kick him." But you are, my dear sir, being
kicked now. What you are doing now? "Yes, I'm getting strength by your
kicking." So you all write very strongly, vehemently. Even it is little
offensive, still these rascals should be taught good lesson. Yes.
They're misleading. Godlessness. As soon as you say "God created",
immediately they become arrogant. That is our protest. If they accept
God, then we give them all credit. That's all right. Otherwise zero. We
don't deprecate their intention of advancement in knowledge. But we
simply protest against their defying the authority of God. That is our