Life Comes
from Life - The Eighth Morning Walk
Recorded Talks
of A.C.
Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada with Dr. Thoudam Damodara Singh,
Karandhara dasa Adhikary, Brahmananda Swami and other students.
Recorded on May 11, 1973, on the shores of the Pacific Ocean, near
Los Angeles.
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The
Evolution of Consciousness
Dr. Singh:
Srila Prabhupada, I came across a statement in the Bhagavad-gita
to the effect that all 8,400,000 species of living entities are created
simultaneously. Is that correct?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes.
Dr. Singh: Does that mean that there are some living
entities who come directly to the human species without undergoing the
evolutionary process?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. Living beings move from one
bodily form to another. The forms already exist. The living entity
simply transfers himself, just as a man transfers himself from one
apartment to another. One apartment is first class, another is second
class and another is third class. Suppose a person comes from a
lower-class apartment to a first-class apartment. The person is the
same, but now, according to his capacity for payment, or karma,
[13] he is able to
occupy a higher-class apartment. Real evolution does not mean physical
development, but development of consciousness. Do you follow?
Dr. Singh: I think so. Do you mean that if one falls
to one of the lower stages of life, he must evolve step by step up to
the higher stages?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. As you get more money you can
move to a better apartment. The apartment already exists, however. It
is not that the lower-class apartment becomes the higher-class
apartment. That is Darwin's nonsensical theory. He would say that the
apartment has become high class. Modern scientists think that life has
come from matter. They say that millions and millions of years ago
there was simply matter, but no life. We do not accept that. Of the two
energies—
life and matter—life, or spirit, is the original, superior energy, and
matter is the resultant inferior energy.
Dr. Singh: Do they exist simultaneously?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but spirit is independent,
and matter is dependent. For example, I can live even without my hands
or legs. If they were amputated, I could survive. Therefore I am not
dependent on my hands and legs; my hands and legs are dependent on me,
the spirit soul within my body.
Bodies for
Eternal Desires
Dr. Singh:
But do life and matter come simultaneously?
Srila Prabhupada: No. They do not "come" at all.
They already exist. The "coming" idea is in our minds because we are
living in this limited world, where we see that there is a beginning to
everything. Therefore we think in terms of things "coming." But
actually matter and spirit already exist. When I am born, I think my
birth is the beginning of the world. But the world already exists.
Another example is a fire. When you light a fire, do the light and heat
begin later on? No. Whenever a fire is ignited, immediately there is
light and heat. But suppose I think, "Now there is a fire, but I have
to wait for the light and heat to come later on." isn't that
foolishness?
Dr. Singh: But fire is the source of the heat and
light.
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, but still the heat and light
exist simultaneously with the fire. Similarly, the eternal living
entities have many different eternal desires. And all the varieties of
species also exist eternally to fit these various eternal desires.
Dr. Singh: And the living entities are made to live
in different bodies according to these desires?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. For example, the government
constructs a prison house because it knows there will be criminals. So
when a criminal is tried and convicted, the prison already exists, even
before the judgment period. Similarly, God is described as sarva-jna,
He who knows everything. Thus He knows that some living entities will
become criminal and rebel against His service. Furthermore, He knows
the various desires the living entities in the material world acquire
according to the three modes of material nature. Therefore He creates
all the species of life from the very beginning to accommodate all the
conditioned souls.
The three modes of material nature are sattva-guna [goodness], rajo-guna
[passion] and tamo-guna [ignorance]. With these three
qualities, all the different objects of the material world are made,
just as one might mix the three primary colors (blue, red and yellow)
to make millions of hues. The great expertise required to handle this
arrangement exists in nature. According to the Bhagavad-gita
(3.27), prakriteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvashah:
"All activities are performed by the modes of material nature." And
these modes are manifested in the different types of species, which
include plants, trees, aquatics, human beings, demigods, cats, dogs and
many others, totaling 8,400,000.
The Supreme Lord expands Himself as the Paramatma, or Supersoul, in
everyone's heart. Although dwelling in the material body, this
Supersoul is not material, even though He is the original source of the
material body. Because heat and light are the energies of the sun, the
sun never feels "too hot." Similarly, for the Paramatma there is no
distinction between spiritual and material because both the material
and the spiritual energies emanate from Him. Sometimes we see that
clouds cover the sun; but that is actually our imperfection. We on this
planet experience both sunshine and cloudiness, but on the sun, even
though it can create clouds, only sunshine is experienced. Similarly,
the division of matter and spirit is our experience, not God's. Whether
He comes in a so-called material body or in a spiritual body, He is
always spiritual. For Him matter and spirit are the same because He is
the energetic. He can turn matter into spirit, and spirit into matter.
H2O
Plus Mystic Power
Dr. Singh:
The chemists and the scientists think that certain elements enable the
spirit soul to remain in the material world. These elements, they say,
are carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen—the main elements that
combine to form living units. I think the Vedas teach
that in order for a living creature to develop, spirit must first enter
within these preexisting chemical elements. Is that correct?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes. For example, the earth
contains everything necessary for a plant to grow, but you must first
put a seed in the earth. Similarly, a mother has within her womb all
the necessary ingredients for creating another body, but the father
must first inject the semen, or seed, into the womb; then the child
will develop. A dog forms a dog's body, and a human forms a human body.
Why? Because all the required ingredients are there, respectively.
We find a certain quantity of chemicals in my body, a smaller quantity
in an ant's body, and a greater quantity in an elephant's body. So, if
I can create so many more chemicals than an ant, and an elephant can
create so many more chemicals than I can, then just think how many more
chemicals God can create! This is the basis on which scientists should
consider how hydrogen and oxygen combine to form water. Otherwise, they
cannot identify the source of the vast quantities of hydrogen and
oxygen required to make the oceans. But we can. This hydrogen and
oxygen exist in the virat-rupa, the universal body of the Lord.
Why do the scientists fail to understand this plain truth? Hydrogen and
oxygen combine to form the water in the seas. We both accept this fact.
But the scientists are surprised to hear that the origin of this huge
quantity of hydrogen and oxygen is actually achintya-shakti, or
the inconceivable mystic power of the Lord.
The
Definition of "Life"
Dr. Singh:
I have noticed a disagreement within the scientific community over the
definition of living and nonliving. Some say that if a being can
reproduce, it is alive. Therefore, they claim to have created life
because certain large DNA molecules [14]
produced in the laboratory can replicate themselves; that is, they can
reproduce other chains of molecules by their own power. Some scientists
say these DNA molecules are living, and others say they are not.
Srila Prabhupada: Because somebody is saying one
thing and somebody is saying another, their knowledge must be imperfect.
Dr. Singh: Can we define living as "containing
consciousness" and nonliving as "without consciousness"?
Srila Prabhupada: Yes, that is the difference. As
Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita (2.17),
avinashi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam: "That which is
spread all over the body is indestructible." Anyone can understand what
is spread all over a living body; it is consciousness. According to our
consciousness at the time of death, we are awarded a particular bodily
shape. If you have a dog's consciousness, you will get a dog's body,
and if you have a godly consciousness, you get a demigod's body. [15] Krishna gives everyone the
freedom to take whatever body he wants:
yanti
deva-vrata devan
pitrin yanti pitri-vratah
bhutani yanti bhutejya
yanti mad-yajino 'pi mam
"Those who worship the demigods will take birth among the demigods;
those who worship ghosts and spirits will take birth among such beings;
those who worship ancestors go to the ancestors; and those who worship
Me will live with Me." (Bg. 9.25)
Darwin
Condemned
Dr. Singh:
If a human being doesn't attain liberation, does he have to pass
through all 8,400,000 species of life before again coming to the human
form?
Srila Prabhupada: No, only in the lower forms of
life does the living entity progress step by step, according to the
laws of nature. In the human form of life, he is endowed with developed
consciousness—he has discretion. Therefore if he is advanced in
consciousness, he is not going to get the body of a dog or cat; he will
get another human body.
prapya
punya-kritam lokan
ushitva shashvatih samah
shuchinam shrimatam gehe
yoga-bhrashdo 'bhijayate [Bg. 6.41]
The word yoga-bhrashtah
refers to someone practicing yoga who somehow or other could
not fully succeed. There's no question of evolution here; he is again
awarded a human body. He does not get a cat's body or a dog's body. As
with the apartments we were discussing, if you can pay more, you get a
nicer apartment. You do not have to come to the lower-class apartment
first.
Dr. Singh: What you have been saying completely
contradicts Darwin's theory of evolution.
Srila Prabhupada: Darwin is a rascal. What is his
theory? We kick out Darwin's philosophy. The more we kick out Darwin's
philosophy, the more we advance in spiritual consciousness.
Dr. Singh: Many scientists doubt Darwin's theories.
But Darwin's supporters say that life started from matter and evolved
from unicellular organisms to multicellular organisms. They believe
that higher species like animals and men did not exist at the beginning
of creation.
Srila Prabhupada: Darwin and his followers are
rascals. If originally there were no higher species, why do they exist
now? Also, why do the lower species still exist? For example, at the
present moment we see both the intellectual person and the foolish ass.
Why do both these entities exist simultaneously? Why hasn't the ass
form evolved upward and disappeared? Why do we never see a monkey
giving birth to a human? The Darwinists' theory that human life began
in such and such an era is nonsense. Bhagavad-gita says
that you can directly transmigrate to any species of life you like,
according to your efforts. Sometimes I travel to America, sometimes to
Australia and sometimes to Africa. The countries already exist. I am
simply traveling through them. It is not that because I have come to
America, I have created or become America. And there are many countries
I have not yet seen. Does that mean they do not exist? The scientists
who support Darwin are nonsensical.
Bhagavad-gita clearly says that all the
species exist simultaneously, and that you can go to whichever species
you like. You can even go up to the kingdom of God, if you so desire.
All this is declared in Bhagavad-gita by Lord Krishna.
13.
Karma means "activity," and the law of karma refers to the
process in which higher authorities award us favorable or unfavorable
reactions according to our pious or impious activities, respectively.
As the Bible says, "As ye sow, so shall ye reap." Thus, our present
condition-whether we are wealthy, wise or beautiful, or whether we have
an American, an Indian or a Japanese body-completely depends on the
activities we performed in our previous life or lives. Ultimately, all karma,
whether good or bad, is unfavorable, for it binds us to the material
world. Devotional service in Krishna consciousness, however, is
akarmic. In other words, it produces no reaction at all. Hence, when
Arjuna killed his opponents on the Battlefield of Kurukshetra, he
suffered no reaction, for he was simply carrying out the will of Lord
Krishna. [Back to text]
14. DNA molecules are essential building
and replicating units in organic cells. Many scientists regard them as
the source of life, but according to Vedic science we must distinguish
the chemical constituents of the body (such as DNA) from the very
source of the life symptoms, which is the spirit soul. [Back
to text]
15. Demigods are beings more advanced than
humans. Although they resemble us, they possess far greater
intelligence and beauty, wonderful mystic powers and, in some cases,
many arms and heads. In the material universe there are thirty-three
million administrative demigods, each of whom is responsible for a
particular phase of cosmic management (such as heat, light, water or
air). [Back to text]
