[Posted July 31, 2008]

An extreme proposition after Marx's heart: Disband religious communities for the good of the state

A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami

Out and out Marxism

London Times July 27, 2008 - MINETTE MARRIN

To beat extremism we must dissolve religious groups

What follows inescapably from this is that religious people and their views should not be officially recognised in groups. Religion should not be allowed a public space or public representation. This is hard for those of us who used to love the muddled Anglican compromise; it means the disestablishment of our national church—if it doesn't self-destruct first.

The challenge of other, fiercer and more divisive convictions has forced the issue; multiculturalism has been subversive. There must be no more religious schools—personally I would leave those that exist alone. There must be no public recognition of religious associations as representatives of anything or anybody: not on campuses, not in student unions, not in government consultations or in parliament.

So-called religious community leaders, or umbrella groups of religious bodies, must of course be free to associate as they like in private, in a free country, but publicly they must be ignored. Publicly they must not teach or promote illegal prejudices. Forced into the private sphere, denied the oxygen of publicity, power and influence, highly politicised religious groups will wither on the vine. Perhaps, in that wonderful phrase of Yeats, they might even wither into truth. go to story

Sri Guru and Gauranga

God consciousness is the perfect communism

excerpt discussions with Hayagriva das on Carl Gustav Jung

HAYAGRIVA: Jung sees atheistic Communism as the greatest threat in the world today. He writes that "The Communist revolution has debased man, because it robs him of his freedom, not only in the social but in the moral and spiritual sense. The state has taken the place of God. That is why, seen from this angle, the socialist dictatorships are religions, and state slavery is a form of worship."

PRABHUPADA: Yes, I agree with him. That is the degradation of human civilization. But the philosophy of the Communist, that everyone has equal right or everyone must take share of the state equally, that is little, basic principle of real communism. According to our understanding, God is the father, material nature is the mother, and we, all living entities, are sons of the father and mother. So as sons everyone has right to live at the cost of father's property. The whole universe is the property of the Supreme Personality of Godhead, and all living entities, they are being supported by the father. But one should be satisfied with the supplies allotted to him. That is, Ishopanishad says, tena tyaktena bhuñjitha [Ishopanishad mantra 1: "Everything animate or inanimate that is within the universe is controlled and owned by the Lord. One should therefore accept only those things necessary for himself, which are set aside as his quota, and one should not accept other things, knowing well to whom they belong."]. There is no need of encroaching on others' property. We should not become envious of the capitalist or rich man, because everyone is given his allotment by the Supreme Personality of Godhead. I should be satisfied with my allotment. I should not encroach upon others' allotment. But the exploitation idea is not there. The same thing, that nobody should exploit. If one has become rich man, that's all right. That, that is natural. One is born in rich family, from his very birth he is a rich man. So why we should interfere his richness? But everyone should be God conscious. Either the rich man or the poor man, they must be God conscious. And God consciousness means that the property I am owning, or the position I am placed in, that is by God's arrangement. Therefore my duty is to serve God in my position. Sthane sthitah shruti-gatam tanu-van manobhih. This is the philosophy of Srimad-Bhagavatam, confirmed by Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Sthane sthitah. We should stay in our place, as it is allotted by God, but our common culture should be shruti-gatam tanu-van manobhih. We should hear about God and act accordingly—it doesn't matter in which work—then there will be harmony. If we become envious, that "Why this man has become rich? I shall encroach upon him," that is again, another type of revolution or encroachment. That is not required. You remain in your position as you have been allotted, but everyone be engaged in the service of the Lord. The, another example is that the, there are different positions of different parts of the body—the head, arms, the belly, the legs. They are different parts of body doing different functions. But the idea is how to maintain this body. So if we, even if we remain in different positions, that is as we get from birth, but we should be engaged in the service of the Supreme, the owner. Just like the hand is owned by the body; therefore hand must work for the body. The leg is owned by the body; therefore the leg must work for the body. So we are all part and parcel of God, and we should, everyone, we should work for God. And how we shall work, that we have to hear from the position where we are, and act accordingly, then there will be real spiritual communism.

HAYAGRIVA: In the atheistic Communism he says, "The goals of religion, deliverance from evil, reconciliation with God, rewards in the hereafter, and so on, turns into worldly promises about freedom from care for one's daily bread, the just distribution of material goods, universal prosperity in the future, and shorter working hours." In other words, material, worldly promises are given.

PRABHUPADA: In the Communism?

HAYAGRIVA: In, in atheistic Communism, in Communism.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. But they have no idea of spiritual life, neither they can understand that there is spirit with the soul, within the body. Dehino 'smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara [Bhagavad-gita 2.13]. That they cannot understand.

HAYAGRIVA: But he feels that socialism or Marxism, Communism, cannot possibly replace religion in the proper traditional sense.

PRABHUPADA: No, it is not religion. It is simply mental speculation—how to adjust material things. It will never be able to adjust it. That is their simply imagination. It will all fail at the ultimate end.

Religion, dharma, is the natural characteristic of the living entity

HAYAGRIVA: He says, "A natural function which has existed from the beginning like the religious function cannot be disposed of with rationalistic and so-called enlightened criticism."

PRABHUPADA: The thing is that these people, they do not understand what is religion. Religion you cannot avoid. That is characteristic. Just like we gave several times this example, that everything has got a particular characteristic. Just like salt, salt is never sweet, and sweet is never salt. It has got a characteristic. A chile is pungent. Similarly, living entity, we are..., what is our characteristic? Our characteristic is to render service. Either you take Communism or this "ism" or that "ism," your real characteristic to render service, that will not change. In the capitalist country they are asking people that "You work in the factory and work for me, and whatever I say, you do," and the same thing is being dictated by the Communist leaders. Where is the difference? There is no difference, but it is only difference of nonsensical idea. Therefore a mass of people, they have to render service, either to Mr. Lenin or Mr. Roosevelt, it doesn't matter. He has to render service. But both the services are not being profitable to the mass of people. Therefore we suggest following the footprints of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, that you serve Krishna. Service is your essential duty, but because your service is wrongly being executed, you are not happy. But if you render your service to Krishna, that is natural and you will be happy. So our Krishna conscious men, they are happy when rendering service to Krishna, or God. So individually or collectively, if every state, every individual person renders service to Krishna, then that is perfect stage of life. He has to render service to somebody, but because it is misplaced, he is never happy, but when the service is rendered to Krishna, then he will be happy. Service you have to render, without any failure, but he does not know where to render service. That is the difficulty. Communist dictating, "You, sir, render service to me," and the capitalist dictating, "Give me service, sir." But Krishna says, "No. No service to this, no service..." Sarva-dharman parityajya: [Bg. 18.66] "You simply give your service to Me, then aham tvam sarva-papebhyo, you will become free from all sinful reaction of life." That is our position.

HAYAGRIVA: He feels that a materialistic Western capitalism cannot possibly defeat a pseudoreligion like Marxism. He says that the only way to combat atheistic Communism is for the individual to adopt, to adopt a nonmaterialistic religion.

PRABHUPADA: That is Krishna consciousness. That is Krishna consciousness. It has nothing to do with materialistic "isms." It is directly connect, connected with the Supreme Personality of Godhead. God demands that sarva-dharman parityajya mam [Bg. 18.66: "Abandon all varieties of religion and just surrender unto Me. I shall deliver you from all sinful reactions. Do not fear."]. So we are teaching that "You, you are servant, but your service is wrongly placed; therefore you are not happy. You place or render the service to Krishna, you will be happy." This is Krishna consciousness. We are neither for capitalism nor for so-called Communism, nor for so-called religion also. We are only for Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

HAYAGRIVA: Jung laments the fact that such a nonmaterialistic faith does not presently exist in the West. He writes, "Not only does the West lack a uniform faith that could block the progress of a fanatical ideology"—that is Marxism—"but as the father of Marxist philosophy," because Marx was a Westerner, "it makes use of exactly the same spiritual," so-called spiritual, "assumptions, the same arguments and aims." So he feels that man is desperately in need of a religion that has immediate meaning, and he feels that Christianity is no longer effective in combating this.

PRABHUPADA: He has predicted very nice. This is Krishna consciousness movement, which is above everything, either Christianism or Marxism or capitalism or anything. It is based on Bhagavad-gita, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So actually it is a fact. Krishna says that if you adopt this principle of life, Krishna consciousness, then you will remain above all sinful reaction of life and make progress spiritually, gradually.

mam upetya kaunteya
duhkhalayam ashashvatam
napnuvanti mahatmanah
samsiddhim paramam gatah [Bg. 8.15]

If you cultivate Krishna consciousness, then the result will be that "The devotee will come back to Me. And one who attains to Me, he hasn't got to go back again to this material world." In another place the same thing is said: tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. "Those who are Krishna conscious they, giving, after giving up this body"—everyone has to give up this body—"he does not accept any more the material body. He comes to Me." "Comes to Me" means "He comes to Me in his spiritual body." So Krishna consciousness movement means to give up this material world and go back to home, back to Godhead.

In Krishna consciousness, the individual finds his place with God and the world

HAYAGRIVA: He says, "If the individual is not truly regenerated in spirit, society cannot be either, for society is the sum total of individuals in need of redemption."

PRABHUPADA: Yes. That... It is individual. We are individually initiating to Krishna consciousness that the mass of people becomes a majority. If not in majority, at least a less percentage, then the face of the world will change. There is no doubt about it.

HAYAGRIVA: "The salvation of the world consists in the salvation of the individual soul. Man's individual relation to God would be an effective shield against these pernicious influences," that is, atheistic Marxism.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. At least those who have taken Krishna consciousness seriously, they never be converted either by Marxism or this "ism" or that "ism." That is not possible. They can convert the Marxist into Krishna consciousness, but a Krishna conscious person can never be turned into Marxism. That is not possible. Param drishtva nivartate [Bg. 9.59]. That is explained in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Because they have seen the highest perfection of life, they cannot be misled by all these third-class, fourth-class philosophies.

HAYAGRIVA: He also felt that materialistic progress is a possible hindrance.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. That is very good idea. That is confirmed by Bhaktivinoda Thakur. Jada-vidya jato mayara vaibhava tomara bhajane badha. Material progress means expansion of the external energy, maya, illusion. So we are already in illusion, and therefore we practically see the so-called scientists, so-called philosophers, because they are materially advanced, they cannot understand even what is God and what is our relationship. So this is hindrance, the so-called advancement of material science, of material knowledge, is undoubtedly hindrance. Tomara bhajane badha. They are all hindrances to the progressive march of Krishna consciousness. When we minimize our necessities, that is saintly life—the bare necessities of life. We are not after very luxurious way of life. We are satisfied only with the bare necessities of life. So it is not an attempt for material progress. It is simply an attempt to make spiritual progress, Krishna consciousness.

HAYAGRIVA: Because a favorable environment merely strengthens the dangerous tendency to expect everything to originate from outside,...

PRABHUPADA: No, everything originates from inside, from the soul.

HAYAGRIVA: He says, "There must be a deep-seated change in the inner man." He also sees that modern man needs a guru, or someone, he says, "to explain religion to man. Whereas the man of today can easily think and understand all the 'so-called truths' dished out to him by the State, his understanding of religion is made considerably more difficult owing to the lack of explanations. Do you understand what you are reading?" And he said, "How can I, unless someone guides me?"

PRABHUPADA: Yes. That is the Vedic injunction. Tad-vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. It is essential that one must go to guru and with guru. Guru is representative of God. Sakshad-dharitvena samasta-shastrair: "The spiritual master is to be honored as much as the Supreme Lord, because he is the most confidential servitor of the Lord. This is acknowledged in all revealed scriptures and followed by all authorities." He, guru, being representative of God, he is worshiped as God, but he never says that "I am God." He is servant God. He is worshiped as God, but he is servant of God, and God is the master God. This is the conception of Vaishnava philosophy. And who is guru, that is described by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. He asked everyone to become guru. Amara ajñaya guru haña tara' ei desha: [Chaitanya-charitamrita Madhya 7.128] "Wherever you are staying, it doesn't matter. You become a guru and deliver all these foolish persons who are in ignorance." So one may say that "I am not so learned. How can I become guru?" So Chaitanya Mahaprabhu said that you do not require to be a learned scholar. There are many so-called learned foolish scholars. It has no meaning. You just instruct what Krishna has instructed. Yare dekha tare kaha 'krishna'-upadesha [Cc. Madhya 7.128]. So real instruction is there, Bhagavad-gita, and any who explains Bhagavad-gita as it is, he is guru. This is the definition of guru. So if one is fortunate enough to approach such guru, then his life becomes successful. Guru is essential.

HAYAGRIVA: He feels on the one hand philosophy has degenerated into exclusively...

PRABHUPADA: Mental...

HAYAGRIVA: ...intellectual and academic speculation.

PRABHUPADA: ...speculation. That is our opinion. They are simply mentally speculating. It has no value. Unless you are directly in touch with the Supreme Personality of Godhead and assimilate the instructions given by Him, by all your reason, and then in practical life you execute it, then one can become guru, he can do good to others; otherwise not possible.

HAYAGRIVA: And on the other hand religion, the Christian religion which was understood in the Middle Ages, has become strange and unintelligible to the man of today.

PRABHUPADA: It is because it is simply dogmatic. The preachers of the religion, they have no idea, clear idea, but officially they speak something. Neither he understands, neither he can make others to understand. But Krishna consciousness movement is not such big thing. It is clear in every respect. Therefore this is the expected movement as Mr. Jung wanted. So every sane man should cooperate with this movement and liberate the human society from the gross darkness of ignorance.

HAYAGRIVA: He characterizes the true religious man as one who is accustomed to the thought of not being sole master of his own house. He believes that God, and not he himself, decides in the end.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Naturally that is the position. What we can decide? That there is already controller over me, so how I can be Absolute? No. Therefore everyone should depend on the supreme controller. That is called, technical language, it is called sharanagati, full surrender. Full surrender. That is called sharanagati.

HAYAGRIVA: He feels that the only thing that keeps modern man..., that will keep modern man from simply dissolving into the crowd is, he says, "We must ask, 'Have I any religious experience, an immediate relation to God and hence that certainty which will keep me as an individual from dissolving in the crowd of humanity?' " So one's relation with God assures one of one's individuality.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Everyone is individual. God is also individual. So one individual is subordinate to the chief individual. That is the Vedic version. Nityo nityanam chetanash chetananam (Katha Upanishad 2.2.13), God is also individual being, but He is the Supreme Being, and we are individual being, innumerable. So the difference is that the supreme living being is maintaining us, and we are being maintained. That we should understand. The same example as I gave, the father and the children in the family. The father is maintainer and the children are maintained. This is the real conception of philosophy. The mother is the material nature and father is God, and we are all children. We have got rights to enjoy the father's property, but not encroaching upon others', but as it is allotted by the father. "You sit down here, you take this, that's all," that, that much right I have got. I do not transgress the order of the father; then it is peaceful situation.