We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that "You take Krishna prasadam [food which has been offered to Krishna]." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.

Vegetarianism is Not the Goal

The point is to become Krishna conscious

PRABHUPADA: He said that he has converted one million persons to be vegetarian. So vegetarian, automatically our disciples, they are automatically vegetarian. There is no separate preaching. And what about the... He was talking about the ahimsa. And I told that vegetarian does not mean ahimsa.

DR. PATEL: The ahimsa should be practiced by...

PRABHUPADA: No, in the shastra it is said that ahastani sa-hastanam apadani chatush-padam.

PUSTA KRSNA: Phalguni tatra mahatam.

PRABHUPADA: Eh?

PUSTA KRSNA: Phalguni tatra mahatam.

PRABHUPADA: Ah, phalguni mahatam tatra.

PUSTA KRSNA: Jivo jivasya jivanam.

PRABHUPADA: Mahatam tatra jivo jivasya jivanam. This is natural, that one jiva [living entity] is the food for another jiva. So how ahimsa is possible?

DR. PATEL: That has been said in Ramayana by that Matan Muni, you know, Matan Muni who was harboring Saubhari, and then he was killing one elephant and living on the elephant for one year, and all other rishis [sages] were against him. He was, I mean, not practicing ahimsa. Then he gave the feast to all those rishis, and the ladu starting moving about. Everywhere there is life, I mean, every grain of the wheat or...

PRABHUPADA: Yes. So therefore how it is possible? Because, after all, apart from Matan Muni, if this is the rule, that one living entity is the food for another living entity... This is the law of nature. Jivo jivasya jivanam. You cannot starve and live.

DR. PATEL: But sir...

PRABHUPADA: And practically...

DR. PATEL: We are killing the body and not... The soul is unkillable.

PRABHUPADA: No, no, no. Don't go to the philosophy. First of all come to the practical. [Dr. Patel laughs] Come to the practical point of view, that after all, you have to eat; otherwise you cannot live. Ahara-nidra-bhaya-maithunam. So if you have to live another living entity, then how you can practice this ahimsa? Means on the basic principle, the ahimsa paramo dharma, where is ahimsa? You have to kill. Either you kill vegetable or animal, you have to kill. Then where is the standing of ahimsa? That is my point.

DR. PATEL: When you kill purposelessly, without any useful...

PRABHUPADA: No, no. No interpretation. They say that "no killing." So no killing is not possible. That is my point. Then where is the thesis stands, that "We are for no killing"?

DR. PATEL: Every action, sir, is, I mean, entangled in this.

PRABHUPADA: So then our Vaishnava's philosophy is perfect, because we take Krishna prasadam. We don't say vegetables. We are not advocating vegetarianism. We are advocating that "You take Krishna prasadam [food which has been offered to Krishna]." How perfect it is. We are not so nonsense that "Because we have become vegetarian, we are perfect." The goats are vegetarian.

DR. PATEL: [laughter] And we are indirectly vegetarians if we eat goats.

PRABHUPADA: No, no, no. Even if we vegetarian are, then how you become big? The goats are vegetarian. Huh? Apadani chatush-padam. This vegetable is meant for the chatush-padam, for the animals, four-legged animals. If somebody says that "Why shall I take this vegetable? It is meant for the animals. I shall take the animal." That is a good argument. Yes. So to become vegetarian is not ahimsa at all. It is a bogus theory. To become a devotee and take Krishna prasadam, that is perfect. Krishna says, patram pushpam phalam toyam yo me bhaktya prayacchati [Bhagavad-gita 9.26: "If one offers Me with love and devotion a leaf, a flower, fruit or water, I will accept it."]. So automatically...

DR. PATEL: Patram pushpam phalam toyam.

PRABHUPADA: That. Then there is perfection, if you take Krishna prasadam. Prasade sarva-duhkhanam hanir asyopajayate. So this vegetarianism is no good position.

DR. PATEL: No, no, the Jains have, I mean, pushed the vegetarians to a very, I mean, to an extent which is...

PRABHUPADA: No, no. What is the benefit? The benefit? The goats are vegetarian. Eh? There are so many animals. They are vegetarian. The monkeys are vegetarian.

DR. PATEL: They are perfect vegetarian. Perfect.

PRABHUPADA: And they live in the forest.

DR. PATEL: They are sannyasis. [laughs]

PRABHUPADA: But number-one rogue. Each of them keeping one dozen women, at least, and no discrimination between wife or daughter. No discrimination. Just like hogs. That's all. No discrimination.

YASOMATI-NANDAN: Cows are also vegetarians.

PRABHUPADA: Eh?

YASOMATI-NANDAN: Cows, they are also vegetarians.

PRABHUPADA: Cows are vegetarian. That's all right. There are many animals, vegetarian. So there is no perfection of life unless we come to the point of Krishna consciousness. Simply by becoming vegetarian, simply by becoming nonviolent, simply by... These are all theories only. It has no value.

PUSTA KRSNA: The argument is sometimes put forward that not everyone will be able to embrace Krishna consciousness fully. Therefore it may be better for them to accept some portion, like, for example, taking up vegetarianism or even doing hatha-yoga, or something like this is better than nothing.

PRABHUPADA: No, that is not very essential. Essential is how to think of Krishna. Krishna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhaktah. He doesn't say that you become vegetarian.

DR. PATEL: That said, tad-artham karma kaunteya mukta-sangah samachara: "You must do everything for Him, even eating."

PRABHUPADA: Yes.

DR. PATEL: That is vegetarianism.

PRABHUPADA: Then, then you are... Then automatically he'll become vegetarian. Automatically he'll become vegetarian. If he takes Krishna prasadam, then he is vegetarian automatically.

PUSTA KRSNA: So it may seem like these other things are stepping-stones to Krishna, but is it necessarily so?

PRABHUPADA: No stepping-stone. This is the ultimate: man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65: "Always think of Me, become My devotee, worship Me and offer your homage unto Me. Thus you will come to Me without fail. I promise you this because you are My very dear friend."], these four things. Unless you come to this point, there is no question of perfection.

DR. PATEL: That's right. Then you feel that every action of yours is done for Krishna.

PRABHUPADA: Not feel, but actually it's an order.

DR. PATEL: Actually doing it.

PRABHUPADA: Arjuna did not feel; he took order to kill. Not that you manufacture your idea. No. That is not. You take order directly and then do it; otherwise you'll be responsible. Therefore the guru is required to act as representative of Krishna. If he says, "Yes, it is all right," then it is all right. Otherwise not. Yasya prasadad bhagavat-prasadah: "By the mercy of the spiritual master one receives the benediction of Krishna. Without the grace of the spiritual master, one cannot make any advancement.". Otherwise why guru is required? We must take every moment order from him.

DR. PATEL: Ya bhakti....

PRABHUPADA: Yasya deve para bhaktir yatha deve tatha gurau [Shvetashvatara Upanishad 6.23: "Unto those great souls who have implicit faith in both the Lord and the spiritual master, all the imports of Vedic knowledge are automatically revealed"]. You cannot manufacture some ideas that "I am feeling I am doing for Krishna." No. That will not be... Direct order.