To the Christian groups who have first tried to brand Obama as a Muslim, or alternatively, as not Christian enough: "What is the measure of a Christian?" and "How can this not be true for you as well?"

What it means to be a Christian

Sri Guru and Gauranga

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Unless you follow the order of Christ, you are not a Christian

INTERVIEWER: You came from a Christian background, I believe?

HANSADUTTA: I went to church every morning.

INTERVIEWER: And yet you would now say that you didn't find any substance in your practices?

HANSADUTTA: I didn't find any substance in the leaders. Without a leader, one cannot follow. "Whatever a great man does, whatever standards he sets by exemplary actions, all common men follow." [Bhagavad-gita 3.21] If there are real leaders, then people will follow. But we find all over the world that people are assassinating their leaders, overthrowing them by force, by revolution. That means they're dissatisfied. A real leader knows how to satisfy his followers.

INTERVIEWER: How can a leader satisfy his followers?

HANSADUTTA: If he engages them in the service of the supreme leader, God.

INTERVIEWER: Would you not say that Christians and other religious groups are trying to serve God?

HANSADUTTA: A Christian is one who follows the order of Christ.

INTERVIEWER: So my question is: Are they not following the order of Christ?

HANSADUTTA: No, they are not. Christ said, "Thou shalt not kill." They kill animals and eat them, so they are not following.

INTERVIEWER: That's a very serious charge. I'm sure many people will object.

HANSADUTTA: They can't object, because this is the statement of their own Bible: "Thou shalt not kill." They kill animals and eat them, so they are not following the order of Christ. And therefore they are not Christians.

INTERVIEWER: They're not Christians? Maybe you could elaborate a little on that?

HANSADUTTA: This is clear. No elaboration.

INTERVIEWER: But in America we already have this tradition of serving God, trying to follow God's laws. Wouldn't it be sufficient for us to simply go back to the Bible?

HANSADUTTA: Yes.

INTERVIEWER: Then would you recommend that? What do you recommend?

HANSADUTTA: The thing is, how will people follow the Bible if there's no example? We also follow the Bible. Whatever is instructed in the Bible, we follow that. We follow all the laws of God. And this is how we can give our followers something of spiritual substance. By following us, they follow the laws of God—"Thou shalt not kill" and so forth. And from within, God naturally gives these people satisfaction. Because they are satisfying the Supreme Lord, they feel supremely satisfied.

INTERVIEWER: So you're saying that a devotee is the only leader who can satisfy his followers?

HANSADUTTA: Yes. A materialistic leader, even if he calls himself religious, cannot satisfy his followers, because he promises them sense enjoyment, and sense enjoyment does not satisfy the soul. That is why every four years we get disgusted and search for a new president—because the old president has failed to satisfy the people's senses. But when people become a little educated in the principles of Krishna consciousness, they'll vote for a Krishna conscious leader, one who will satisfy them spiritually.

Before the Europeans learned the teachings of Christ, they were living like barbarians. What is the difference between a barbarian and a civilized man? A civilized man knows how to control his senses. How does he learn this? He learns it from the original books of knowledge, the Vedic literatures or the world's other scriptures. "Thou shalt not kill." "Thou shalt not steal." "Thou shalt not commit adultery." These are not something dogmatic or sentimental, but principles for spiritual satisfaction.

We don't care whether you follow Christ's teaching or Mohammed's teaching or Krishna's teaching, because all of them are teaching the same principles. In math, for example, two plus two equals four whether you live in Italy or China or Poland. Two plus two equals four at New York University or Hong Kong University or Oxford University. The language may be different, the place may be different, the teacher may be different, but the principle is the same, and if you want your calculations to turn out nicely, then you follow this basic mathematical principle. In the same way, if you want your life to turn out nicely, with complete satisfaction, you follow the basic spiritual principles, like "Thou shalt not kill". All kinds of people can claim they're following spiritual or religious principles, but then why are they killing and eating animals?

INTERVIEWER: Well, the Bible says...

HANSADUTTA: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy mind, with all thy heart, with all thy soul" and "Love thy neighbor as thyself." So love of God includes love of everything, because everything comes from God. If you love God, you must also love His creation, and if you want to return to your natural state of living in harmony with all of God's creatures, you have to stop killing them. The Bible says, "Whatever you do unto the least of My creatures you do it unto Me."

INTERVIEWER: Some of the world's most renowned religious leaders eat meat. I can think of one who eats veal.

HANSADUTTA: That makes them vile. That makes them animal killers.

INTERVIEWER: This seems awfully hard to take. I mean, these people are very holy men.

HANSADUTTA: What is the definition of "holy"? What makes them holy?

INTERVIEWER: Well, they're kind.

HANSADUTTA: What makes them kind?

INTERVIEWER: Well, everyone regards them as great gentlemen.

HANSADUTTA: What is a "gentleman"? Give a definition.

INTERVIEWER: A God-fearing man, a man who lives by high moral standards.

HANSADUTTA: What is a God-fearing man?

INTERVIEWER: A God-fearing man is someone who recognizes that God is the Father, that God is great.

HANSADUTTA: How do we know that he recognizes this? How will we know whether this person has recognized God? What are the symptoms? How will I be able to distinguish him from one who hasn't recognized?

INTERVIEWER: Well, he's always talking about God. Yesterday, for instance, a great religious leader arrived on a nationwide tour, and he said that the youth of America should learn to love God and avoid temptation.

HANSADUTTA: What is temptation? He's eating flesh, he's drinking alcohol. Then what are the temptations he's talking about?

INTERVIEWER: He said we should reject fads and...

HANSADUTTA: What kind?

INTERVIEWER: We should reject the possibility of sinning and falling into...

HANSADUTTA: What is sin? What is a sin?

INTERVIEWER: Sinning is transgressing the moral laws, God's laws.

HANSADUTTA: Well, what is God's law?

INTERVIEWER: [no reply]

HANSADUTTA: "Thou shalt not kill". So does our man follow this law? Does he not kill? He's eating animals that have to be mercilessly killed. Then how is he following the law?

INTERVIEWER: Well, he's very concerned that young peole are losing their feeling for God, their feeling for morality. It's a very deep concern that's shared by virtually all religious leaders—priests, rabbis, born-again Christians, what have you.

HANSADUTTA: But if they're so concerned, why don't they set the example? If they have no idea what religion is, or if they set no example, then how can they expect the young people to become religious and moral? The priest is smoking, he's drinking, he's having illicit sex. So what's the difference between the priest, who gets a salary and paid vacation, smokes and drinks, eats meat and the ordinary man who works on a construction site, gets a salary, paid vacation, smokes, drinks and eats meat?

INTERVIEWER: I think you're demanding an awfully high standard.

HANSADUTTA: First of all, what is a priest? What is the difference between a priest and a construction worker?

INTERVIEWER: The priest can point the way to the mercy of God.

HANSADUTTA: How can he do that if he hasn't got any mercy? If he's eating animal flesh, where is his mercy? What is your idea of mercy?

INTERVIEWER: Only Christ could be perfect.

HANSADUTTA: Why? Then why did Christ say, "Be ye pure as your heavenly Father is pure" if only he could be perfect? Why can't the follower become perfect too?

INTERVIEWER: It's a very long-standing Christian teaching that no one can be perfect except Christ, and we just have to accept the blood of Christ. How can we be perfect? We're all sinners.

HANSADUTTA: You can become perfect by surrendering to the perfect, the bonafide spiritual master, God's representative. Just follow his example. For instance, if a teacher writes "A", then all the young student has to do is to follow and write "A". In that way, the student is perfect.

INTERVIEWER: Somehow the mercy of God seems so great that even though we're sinners we can be saved.

HANSADUTTA: What do you mean by "the mercy of God"? What do you mean by that?

INTERVIEWER: We all make mistakes, and somehow God will wipe them out.

HANSADUTTA: Why? Why should He? Suppose you get 20 speeding tickets. Is the judge going to wipe them out somehow? You have to pay. If you don't pay, then you'll be arrested. Why should God wipe out your mistakes? You are here to become perfect.

INTERVIEWER: I was under the impression that we're here to manifest God's love.

HANSADUTTA: What is love? Do you know what it is? What is God's love? People talk of God's love and "in God we trust", but how can you say you love God or trust God if you don't follow His laws?

INTERVIEWER: Well, the Bible says, "Don't add to these teachings."

HANSADUTTA: I'm not asking you to add. Just follow.

INTERVIEWER: But I'm a Christian, and honestly I can't accept anything else but the Bible.

HANSADUTTA: What is the difference between a Chrisitan and a "Krishnite"?

INTERVIEWER: We don't think you're worshiping the same God that we are.

HANSADUTTA: Oh? Just tell me what God is.

INTERVIEWER: All I know is what the Bible says, and it doesn't happen to be very detailed.

HANSADUTTA: So how do you know I'm not worshiping the same God that you are?

INTERVIEWER: Christ said, "I am the only way." So we're just... we're just trying to follow Christ.

HANSADUTTA: That's all right. But you're not following. We wouldn't mind if you followed Christ, but you don't follow him.

INTERVIEWER: What I'm trying to say is that America doesn't need any other teachings. Our society is based on the Christian ethic. This is a Biblical society. It's based on Biblical principles.

HANSADUTTA: What are they?

INTERVIEWER: Well, the Ten Commandments, for example.

HANSADUTTA: "Thou shalt not kill." Then you won't kill.

INTERVIEWER: It always gets back to that. Let's go on to something else.

HANSADUTTA: "Thou shalt not steal." You've stolen this land from the native Americans.

INTERVIEWER: Well, that was a mistake.

HANSADUTTA: "Thou shalt not commit adultery."

INTERVIEWER: Yes, this is what I'm saying. We should get back to the Biblical principles.

HANSADUTTA: We agree.

INTERVIEWER: Most people in the West have a very... you could say dry feeling about God.

HANSADUTTA: Because you don't know God. You don't know what God is. You have to know what God actually is. You can know by rendering some service to Him. If you want to know anyone, you have to render the person some service. You have to please the person by doing something for him that satisfies him; then that person reveals himself to you. God is a person, and He reveals Himself to His sincere devotees.

INTERVIEWER: So when a person renders some service, as you say, what does he find out? Could you tell us just a little from what you may have experienced yourself?

HANSADUTTA: Then the person is confirmed, "Yes, I am Krishna's servant." If you hear about Krishna or talk about His glories or chant His holy names, then because you are part and parcel of Him, naturally you feel pleased. Just like when the hand gives food to the stomach—the hand becomes strong and healthy. And when you render service to Krsihna, then you become satisfied. You become joyful. Brahma bhuta prasannatma na sochati na kankshati. You come to your original joyfulness, free from desire and lamentation. As sugar is sweet, as fire is hot, so the soul is by nature joyful. And when we render service to Krishna, we experience our original, joyful life. At that time there are no more desires, nor are there any lamentations. There's real satisfaction. Bhagavad-gita says, "In that joyous state one enjoys himself through transcendental senses. Thus he never departs from the truth. Established thus, one never departs from the truth. Upon gaining this, he thinks there is no greater gain. And even in the midst of the greatest difficulty, he is not disturbed."

INTERVIEWER: So you're offering what you trust is the solution for an age of disturbance.

HANSADUTTA: The only solution is to surrender to Krishna, to serve Krishna, because this is our real identity. Just like a citizen's only alternative is to serve his country honestly and enthusiastically. If he tries to cheat his country, then he'll always be harassed by the police. So now we're being harassed by Krishna's police force, the material nature, and we are suffering in various ways, but as soon as we surrender, the police force will give us relief and actually help us.

INTERVIEWER: But Americans have strong feelings about being free, being independent.

HANSADUTTA: No one is free. Everyone is a prisoner. First of all, we are imprisoned in this material body, which is subjected to many unwanted sufferings—birth, death, old age and disease. The body is then confined to a family, which is further confined to a community, which is further confined to a country, with a certain language and customs, which is further confined to this planet, which is further confined within the walls of the universe. In this way, we are not free. We are prisoners. Freedom is possible only when we give up material existence altogether. Material existence cannot be improved, because it is by nature beset with all kinds of sufferings. Just like a prison house. No matter how you improve it, it's still a prison house. It's confinement. The soul doesn't want confinement; the soul wants freedom, but there is no freedom as long as we are attached to material life.

INTERVIEWER: But I've never encountered any religious experience that has made me less attached.

HANSADUTTA: Yes, you have never encountered anything superior. But once you get something superior, then you'll give up your attachment to the inferior. If you have ten dollars, and I offer you a hundred dollars, then you'll give up your ten and take the hundred.

INTERVIEWER: You're saying that what you're offering is the hundred. How can we know for sure?

HANSADUTTA: You have to take it.