Purify the Pollution

excerpt from Conversation with John Popworth and E.F. Schumacher, July 26, 1973, London

Modern Progress

Advancement of Civilization by HANSADUTTA DAS

Everybody has to give something for something they get. that is the law of nature: give and take, action and reaction, an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth, do unto others as you would have them do unto you. We can't escape this. If we can understand this basic principle of life, then we shall give up the foolish notion of getting something for nothing.

Material scientists and politicians and economists are trying to get something for nothing. They think they can exploit material nature and enjoy some profit. They do not know that everything which they take from nature has to be paid for. They have to pay. more

Revatinandan: So Mr. Popworth you know, and Mr. Schumacher will be up in a second.

Prabhupada: Yes, you came here before.

Revatinandan: Yes, that's right.

Prabhupada: How are you?

Mr. Popworth: My invariable reply, sir, is that I am dying slowly. I trust you are well, sir.

Prabhupada: Yes. Old man, struggling. Spiritual consciousness is not dependent on material impediments.

Mr. Popworth: I'm not hearing these beautiful words.

Revatinandan: [to Mr. Popworth:] He remarked that the spiritual consciousness is not impeded by material impediments-like the body.

Mr. Popworth: I discovered that when I was a cook. I used to have to peel a huge bath full of potatoes every day, hours and hours, and it became that I could peel the potatoes without being aware that I was handling them. And my mind was roaming, disembodied almost from any encumbrance. But this is not the same as meditation, I'm sure, as you see it.

Prabhupada: What is your idea of meditation? [Dr. Schumacher enters the room] Come on. Hare Krishna.

Revatinandan: Sit over here.

Vichitravirya: This is Dr. Schumacher.

Prabhupada: Yes. Thank you very much for your coming. I have read some of your ideas. So from your writing it appears you are nice, thoughtful man. Muni... the Sanskrit word is muni. Just like Narada Muni. They are very thoughtful. So I have read one description of, "Crisis of Increasing Motor Cars," in this paper. Actually, we are creating a crisis. This advancement of modern civilization is simply creating crisis. One Vaishnava poet, he has sung: sat-sanga chadi kainu asatye vilasa. Sat-sanga means spiritual association. So we have given up spiritual association, and asatye vilasa, we have taken to material enjoyment. So sat-sanga chadi kainu... There are two things, material and spiritual. So sat-sanga chadi kainu asatye... "I have given up spiritual association, and I have taken to material association. Therefore I have become entangled." Sei karane lagila mora karma-bandha-phansa. We are becoming more and more entangled in material activities. We are trying to solve one problem, and creating another big problem. Just like I was reading the "Motor Car Crisis." We thought that with a horseless carriage it will be very convenient to travel. But against that convenience, so-called convenience, we have created so many inconveniences. It is very nicely described in that paper I was reading.

Revatinandan: Was it this one?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandan: It's a reprint, "Economics of Permanence," your essay.

Prabhupada: What is that?

Revatinandan: It's called "The Economics of Permanence."

Prabhupada: Yes. "The Motor Car Crisis"?

Revatinandan: Is it mentioned in that essay? I think it must be a different location.

Vichitravirya: I think it was in one of the Resurgence magazines, perhaps. It was in one of the eight magazines, I think.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes, yes. Here.

Mr. Popworth: The one on Buddhist economics.

Dr. Schumacher: No, it was the other one. This is "The Economics of Permanence."

Mr. Popworth: Oh.

Prabhupada: Hm. "Cars, Profits and Pollution." I was just reading this article. "Cars, Profits and Pollution." So this one side, we make profit, another side, we make pollution. This is the material, result of material activities. Whatever you do. Anything you do material, it is same. In one side, you see, "Oh, there is so much profit," and another side, you'll see so much pollution. Therefore the remedy is to act for spiritual realization. Then you will avoid pollution. The remedy is. If you... That is described in the Bhagavad-gita, in the Third Chapter, how we can work for spiritual realization and avoid the pollution of material activities. This is the sum and substance of Bhagavad-gita. In the Bhagavad-gita, we do not avoid the material activities, but we become free from the material pollution. This is the secret of Krishna consciousness movement.

Mr. Popworth: How do you envisage one should act, if I may ask that?

Revatinandan: He said, how do you envisage that one should act. How should one act? He's asking.

Prabhupada: That you will find in the Bhagavad-gita. Just like Arjuna. He was a kshatriya, a warrior, but he acted on account of Krishna. We are acting, but we are acting at the present moment for our sense gratification. Everyone is thinking that "If I do like this, it will give me great satisfaction." That is my sense gratification. I am acting for my satisfaction, not for Krishna's satisfaction. So when we act for Krishna's satisfaction, that is the perfection. Then we save the material pollution. This is the secret. Arjuna is a good example. Before fighting, he was thinking in terms of his own satisfaction. But when he understood Bhagavad-gita and he agreed to act for Krishna's satisfaction, then he became perfect. So our, this Krishna consciousness movement is so nice that we do not say immediately to stop. Just like "Cars, Profits and Pollution," the very nice description of these three things. But there is no suggestion of remedy. That he does not know. If he suggested remedy, "Now stop all cars driving," or "Stop this nonsense business," that is impossible. That is craziness. So we do not say that you stop it. But we say, purify it. Just like there is pollution. So pollution is there. You cannot stop manufacturing cars or driving cars. That is not possible. But you can purify the pollution. That is possible.

Mr. Popworth: It's possible to what?

Prabhupada: Purify.

Mr. Popworth: Purify the pollution.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Mr. Popworth: Yes.

Prabhupada: That is Krishna consciousness movement. Nirbandhah krishna-sambandhe yuktam vairagyam uchyate. So everything should be done—that is called karma-yoga—in Krishna consciousness. Under the direction of Krishna. Just like Arjuna is doing. He did not change his position as a fighter, as a warrior. But he acted according to the direction of Krishna. Therefore he is recognized: bhakto 'si priyo 'si [Bhagavad-gita 4.3]. "You are My dear friend. You are My devotee." This is the process. So we have to purify. We cannot stop. That is not possible. The progress which is going on, let it go. But let it go, we do not want that, but it has come so far, it is not possible to stop it. But here is the remedy. You can purify it.

Mr. Popworth: What means do you suggest for purifying it?

Prabhupada: The means is that... Our process is that wherever we go, we perform sankirtana, chant the holy name of God. That purifies, cheto-darpana-marjanam [Chaitanya-charitamrita Antya 20.12]. It doesn't matter where it is. Even if we... We can go to the factory. Anywhere. We can go to the hell even. By, but this process, it is a very simple thing, chanting the holy name of the Lord. So what possible objection can there be? Suppose if we go to a motor car factory, and we ask them, "Please give us some chance. We shall chant here the holy name of the Lord." What their... what is the possible objection? You are very thoughtful man. You can say.

Dr. Schumacher: I don't see the point.

Prabhupada: Eh? There cannot be any objection.

Dr. Schumacher: No.

Prabhupada: Yes. So let us get this chance. Simple method. So we'll go. Let us go everywhere, hell or heaven. It doesn't matter. Let us have this chance and speak something about God. That's all. And we don't want anything from you in exchange, that "You give us some money." No. We don't want. If you give us something, welcome. It will be used for Krishna's service. But we don't demand anything, that "First of all give me a hundred dollars, then I shall go." No. So... From the other side, there is no loss. But if they give us the chance for prosecuting, for pursuing, this Hare Krishna Movement, everything will be purified. Cheto-darpana-marjanam bhava-maha-davagni... [Cc. Antya 20.12]. All problems will be solved. This is the beginning. Now, gradually, as people understand this philosophy, they will understand. They will understand. If they simply give us the chance. Sthane sthitah. Let them remain in their position. We don't disturb. We don't disturb. Sthane sthitah shruti-gatam tanu-van-manobhih. Simply they will kindly give their aural reception what we are speaking.

Mr. Popworth: Well, the diagnostic's not altogether clear to me how the chanting is going to affect the pollution. How do you see...?

Prabhupada: It is a purificatory process. Pollution means impure. So if you purify, then there is no more pollution. Just like infection. You have got some disease, infection. If you give some vaccine to purify the body, the infection is gone. It is like that.

Revatinandan: It seems that there's a difference in the usage of this word pollution.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Revatinandan: I think there's a difference in the way the word pollution is being used.

Prabhupada: Yes, whatever meaning you may do...

Revatinandan: So, for instance, if it is used to indicate air pollution...

Prabhupada: Yes.

Revatinandan: ...then how will the chanting will affect that?

Prabhupada: Yes, it will affect.

Revatinandan: He's asking how.

Prabhupada: How? That you do not know. You'll have to realize when you give us the chance. But if you give us the chance, there is no loss on your part. But you'll practically see how it is rectified, how it is...

Vichitravirya: Pollution is to some extent a result of materialistic activity?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Vichitravirya: The pollution, is it to some extent the result of material activity, which will cease when the spiritual...

Prabhupada: Yes, there are so many things. What is material activity, what spiritual activity is. These are to be understood. But we are sure, if simply this chance is given, anywhere, let us execute this Krishna consciousness movement by chanting Hare Krishna maha-mantra and speaking something from this Bhagavad-gita. We are getting practical result. Just like you were describing, that in communist country.

Hansadutta: Ah...

Prabhupada: You just explain to them.

Hansadutta: They have a big youth festival there in East Berlin. Maybe you know? "The Festival of Youth."

Mr. Popworth: Yeah.

Hansadutta: So they have invited youth from all over the world to come and see what they are doing there. So some of our devotees went there just the past week. And they reported to me that at every moment during the day that they were there they were surrounded always by at least three hundred young people who simply stood taking notes and asking questions about this Krishna consciousness. They want to know what is this Krishna consciousness, what they are doing. That means that there is some dissatisfaction. They want something. They want something substantial. And they're getting it from Krishna consciousness. This philosophy is substantial. It is practical. They are hankering for it. Their so-called communist philosophy is not perfect. It's imperfect.

Mr. Popworth: They were communist youth who were surrounding?

Hansadutta: Yes.

Mr. Popworth: The people.

Hansadutta: Yes. They were surrounding our devotees and asking questions and taking notes and taking addresses.

Mr. Popworth: But the people who are at the conference are not all communist youth, are they?

Hansadutta: Well, whoever they may be, they've gone there with some interest about communism. Otherwise, they would not go there. So this Krishna consciousness... Actually, Krishna consciousness is perfect communism, Prabhupada always explained, because communism, so-called communism, they give advantage only to the human being, but not to the animals or the other living beings. But Krishna consciousness is pure, genuine, absolute communism because we recognize that the Supreme... Everyone should work for Krishna. Everything should be utilized for Krishna. So Krishna is the supreme head of state, and everything is utilized for His purpose, His service. Just like Krishna says, "Whatever you do as work, whatever you eat, whatever you give away, you do it for Me." The same philosophy... Communist philosophy is "Everyone works for the state; the state will distribute." Right? But it's imperfect. But here is the perfect thing. Krishna, He is the supreme creator, He's the proprietor. Therefore everything must be used for His pleasure. Then it becomes perfect communism.

Prabhupada: Instead of making the state center, make God center.

Mr. Popworth: Do you think that the Christian monasteries practiced this in the past, or perhaps even today?

Hansadutta: Well, today, no one is practicing it. Otherwise why people are leaving the church? No one is in the monastery, no one is in the church. They are abandoning it. Because there is no center. As soon as there is a center, it will carry weight. Just like a wheel. If there's a hub, if there's a hub, that it will carry weight.

Mr. Popworth: I have not abandoned the church. I have embraced it.

Hansadutta: Anyway, our point is... We're speaking in general. In general, because the center, factually the center, God, is missing, somehow or other, He's missing, therefore people are also giving it up. They can't take it. Because it's not practical. Krishna consciousness is practical. It's not a sentiment or a dry philosophy. It's a practical philosophy of life, absolute philosophy of life, how to do everything without any pollution, without any contamination. Just like we are experiencing by our so-called advancement that we have created so many modern facilities for comfort, but the result is, alongside, simultaneously, there's an equal disadvantage. Just like we create a motor car. But we create air pollution. Or you create a highway. But you have to create snowplow to clear the highway. You have to create police. You have to create so many other things.

Prabhupada: And there is list of accidents, injuries.

Hansadutta: Yes.

Revatinandan: And just like yesterday, Mahadeva's parents came here, his mother came here along with a Jesuit family priest, about sixty years old. And she accused us that we had come and kidnapped him out of the university. And we said, "Actually, we didn't kidnap him. He came to our temple and didn't want to go away," which is what happened. She said, "Well, that's because he took some LSD and he had a false religious experience." So then I asked the Jesuit priest, "If your religious experience is as pure as he had just been saying, then why was this boy, trained up in a Jesuit school, seeking after spiritual life from a false religious process? Why was he taking LSD in the first place if his religion was satisfactory?" And he couldn't answer it. He said, "Well, there seems to be some kind of a spiritual," what did he say, "a spiritual lack or a spiritual something at this time for some reason." But he would not define it that he was unable to fill that spiritual lack by his process. And yet, we have filled that lack, or our spiritual master has filled that lack for thousands of young people now, who are not only God conscious, but they're practicing it every minute of every day. And they're practicing it practically, in the city or in the community or in the farm or wherever they are. So it's not that we're contesting the origins. The origin from Christ may have been very pure, but its present manifestation appears to be lacking something. And the young people are seeing that.

Prabhupada: Just for example, that in the Ten Commandments, the first Commandment is "Thou shall not kill." So when I ask any Christian gentleman, "Then why you are killing?" they cannot give me any satisfactory answer.

Revatinandan: How does the, how does the process of animal slaughter in the slaughterhouse as we find it today, how does it fit in your philosophy for, say, changing the society? Where do you put that in your philosophy?

Dr. Schumacher: Well, I think one should try and do without it. You can't everywhere do without it. It's like all nonviolence. It's a direction of movement, to try to do your utmost to go as far as...

Revatinandan: So wherever possible, the slaughtering business should not go on.

Dr. Schumacher: That's right. But the Eskimos, for instance...

Prabhupada: That is another thing.

Dr. Schumacher: That's what I was saying, you see.

Prabhupada: When there is no food, so human life is more important than animal life. So the human life should be saved at the sacrifice of animals. That is another question. But where there is complete facilities to get very nice, nutritious food, why these poor animals should be killed?

Revatinandan: But in the last week we've had a Jesuit priest, a Black Friar's monk, several other theologically inclined Christian gentlemen have been here, and not one of them has assented to that statement. They do not agree. They think that...

Prabhupada: They do not agree that animal killing is sinful. They do not agree.

Dr. Schumacher: It's a very long question, isn't it. I mean...

Prabhupada: No, it is a simple question. Killing, do you think killing is very good business? Then why it is forbidden, "Thou shall not kill."

Dr. Schumacher: No, but sometimes protection is necessary.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. Generally, you should not kill. But when there is absolute necessity, that is another thing. But generally, this killing process you cannot support, and at the same time, you want to make the society purified. You commit sinful activities; at the same time, you want to purify. How it is possible?

Dr. Schumacher: I think a society can survive, and spirituality can survive, even among meat-eaters. It's much more difficult, I imagine, that a society can survive which has animal factories. Now, I would be much more interested whether we can get our friends, the Dominicans, the Jesuits, to agree that this kind of a treatment of animals is just so, beyond the pale. This would be, in the European context, I think, a better test than to challenge the habit of meat-eating, which is also intergrown with all sorts of assumptions. I mean there is the ruling assumption that you need it, which I challenge and you challenge.

Revatinandan: See, the habits are one thing. If we understand that it is an undesirable habit, they can be changed. All of us are from meat-eating backgrounds, almost without exception. We've all strictly stopped. We've stopped taking intoxicants. We've stopped gambling and we've stopped illicit sex life, although we were habituated to doing these things, because we came to understand that it was necessary for the advancement of our spiritual life. But the difficulty is that somebody who is so much engrossed in this kind of life, who has made it a pillar of his life, and that by the psychological effect of such habits, he comes to the stage of being so stony-hearted that he does not see the miserable suffering he's putting the animals to unnecessarily. He has no sense for it. Even if it's graphically described to him... I described it to this monk about how conscious the cow is compared to, say, the cauliflower. He couldn't see any difference. No distinction.

Mr. Popworth: I'm sorry. Distinction between what?

Revatinandan: The distinction between killing a cow and cutting off a cauliflower from a plant. He said, "Both are alive." Yes, both are alive. But what is the psychological state of a cow, and what is the psychological state of a cauliflower plant? Practically speaking, he has no psychology. No senses, no mind, no ability to feel elation or suffering. But a cow is a completely different condition. Cow is very nearly to human consciousness. Practically the next birth after a cow, according to the Vedas, is a human birth. So you're putting so much suffering unnecessarily. But he had no sense, not... An intelligent man who can sense that "If I suffer, I don't like it," then when he sees another living entity put into suffering, he thinks, "How I could avoid that suffering for that living entity, because I don't like to suffer." But this gentleman had no conception. He's...

Prabhupada: There is one moral instruction by Chanakya Pandita. Chanakya Pandita was a great minister during the time of Maharaja Chandragupta. So he was honorary Prime Minister in the empire. So he has a book on moral instruction. So he says in that moral instruction who is a learned man. So he gives the description of a learned man, that: matrivat para-dareshu. Matrivat. "Just treat all other women except your wife as your mother." Matrivat para-dareshu, para-dravyeshu loshtravat. Loshta means as there are so many pebbles lying on the street, you don't care for it, similarly, others' property, others' money you should treat just like these pebbles lying on the street or the garbage lying on the street. Don't touch it. So matrivat para-dareshu para- dravyeshu loshtravat, atmavat sarva-bhuteshu. And treat all living entities as you want to be treated. If one has got these three qualifications, he is learned man. He does not say, one who has got this BAC, DAC degrees, and so on, so on, so on. No. The result of his education is to be seen by three manifestations: treating all women as mother; treating others' money, property, as garbage, as rubbish in the street; and treating all living entities as you want to be treated yourself. If one has attained these three development of knowledge, he is learned. There is no question of literary education. Matrivat para-dareshu para-dravyeshu loshtravat. So if we covet other's wife, if we eat meat, if we indulge in intoxication, if we indulge in gambling, we are polluting the whole society. So how we can expect purification unless we accept these principles? You cannot ignite fire, at the same time pour water on it. Similarly, if you want to purify the whole society, the first principle should be like this, as Chanakya Pandita says,

matrivat para-dareshu
para-dravyeshu loshtravat
atmavat sarva-bhuteshu
yah pashyati sa panditah

Women should be treated as mother. They should be given protection. They should not be advertised for prostitution. All living [beings] should be given protection. This is the government's duty. A king's duty is government duty, that anyone who has taken birth on the land, he must be protected. It doesn't matter whether he's human being or animal or tree. So these are the process of purification. If you don't adopt the process, simply you think the counterside only, there is no wor... So this Krishna consciousness movement will purify the whole situation. Therefore we expect.

Mr. Popworth: I wonder if I could put the point which Dr. Schumacher has made somewhat more forcefully if possible. I am surprised that in the exchange the point he made was not taken and answered. What is at issue is that in your beliefs you are saying it is wrong to kill an animal. It is possible, I don't say this to justify the killing of animals. But it is possible for an animal to be killed by a man in a way that involves far less suffering to the animal than it would die in its natural state. But what seems to be such an infinitely greater evil, an infinitely greater crime against the natural order is, for example, to take one chicken and put it in a cage the size of a shoe box, and then add more two more chickens to it, and then keep them there for the whole of their short natural life, unnatural life. But it seems to me, and, I think, to Dr. Schumacher, that this is an abomination of the spirit far greater than the mere killing of animals. But if it... It seems to be an insult against creation to treat the animal life in this manner. And yet, you do not appear to be shocked by it as you are shocked by the mere fact of killing.

Prabhupada: It is more shocking than killing?

Mr. Popworth: Far more.

Vichitravirya: What happens is they have large factories where they have thousands and thousands and thousands of chickens in a very tight space, and they breed them for slaughter.

Prabhupada: Oh.

Mr. Popworth: And young cows, calves are kept in a dark shed, deliberately kept in a dark shed and fed on an unnatural diet. They are not allowed to move, they are just kept in a space the size of their body. And for eight weeks, three months, they are fed on unnatural food, milk powder or something, devoid of certain necessary vitamins, to make the flesh whiter so that it gets a market. But that unfortunate beast, instead of walking in the fields under the open sky, he's shut him down.

Prabhupada: All right, if you are so compassionate, you can kill those animals. But why you are maintaining slaughterhouse, killing nice animals.

Revatinandan: No, he's talking... He's just saying that the way they're maintaining the slaughterhouse now has become even more inhuman. They don't even leave the animal in the field anymore. They keep him...

Hansadutta: One small point. A simple point is that the slaughterhouse activity necessitates to raise them in that way. As soon as there is a question of animal killing, then naturally, you want to be as expedient as possible. So if you abolish the animal killing, automatically this breeding animals in this fashion will also automatically stop.

Mr. Popworth: But the slaughterhouse becomes a temple of mercy given these conditions in which the animals are...

Hansadutta: Yes. As long as you maintain a slaughterhouse, then there'll be people to breed animals to supply to the house of slaughter.

Prabhupada: It is nice.

Hansadutta: As soon as there's no more slaughterhouse, then the animals are free. They can go everywhere.

Mr. Popworth: I think you are avoiding the point.

Revatinandan: No. It's the solution. If you want to stop that treatment of animals, you stop the slaughterhouse. Otherwise, first you keep them in the field to slaughter. That's already brute mentality. That brute mentality means next I think, "I could get more flesh if I didn't let this cow move. So let me keep him in a case, cage, in the dark so they have lighter meat." This is one stage of brute mentality to another stage of brute mentality. The next stage of brute mentality... They're already killing the unborn child. Now, next, the child is born. That's the next stage of brute mentality. That is predicted in the Vedas.

Prabhupada: Now, their theory is that when the child comes out of the womb, then he gets the soul. Is it not?

Revatinandan: Yes.

Prabhupada: Not within the womb.

Hansadutta: Yeah.

Prabhupada: What kind of theory it is? For killing the child within the womb, they have discovered this theory.

Dr. Schumacher: I think if there is any difficulty... Well, I happen to be a vegetarian.

Revatinandan: Yes.

Dr. Schumacher: But I would hesitate a long, long time before I would make meat-eating the touchstone on which I would judge a Jesuit. I don't think I could see such a central position. And the evils that are going on that have to be fought are, in comparison with meat-eating, gigantic. And therefore, to refuse to accept that even a meat-eating Jesuit may be a far better man than a vegetarian who is engaged in all sorts of nefarious practices, I think one should be a bit careful. If you come out of a civilization where this has been customary all, all throughout history...

Hansadutta: Therefore all throughout history...

Dr. Schumacher: Yes, I know. I haven't...

Hansadutta: ...you haven't... Why hasn't there been peace in our civilization? Because we're practicing these four things: meat..., animal killing, intoxication, illicit sex life and gambling. According to Vedic scripture, these four activities are the sum and substance of sinful life, and sinful life means...

Prabhupada: Pollution.

Hansadutta: Pollution. Or reaction. You're getting... Just like you make an automobile; you get the reaction-air pollution. So if you kill animals, you will be killed.

Mr. Popworth: You think like this?

Hansadutta: And intoxication itself means that you are polluted. Toxic means poison. Poison means pollution. So if you indulge in intoxication, everything you do, say and think will be polluted. If you kill animals, the result is you're polluting nature's... There are laws of nature. Animal is part of nature. You're part of nature. So if you disturb nature, that means you're polluting the nature. And you are living in that nature. So you are suffering the reaction.

Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have got a good, a good formula on this, and...

Hansadutta: It's common sense. That's all.

Prabhupada: It is not the question of Buddhist, Christian or Hindu. It is common sense philosophy.

Dr. Schumacher: The Buddhists have a good compromise on this. They say you can eat meat...

Prabhupada: No, no strict Buddhist will say.

Dr. Schumacher: ...but because you're not allowed to kill animals for eating meat.

Prabhupada: What is this?

Dr. Schumacher: So they let the Muslims kill the animals.

Revatinandan: Let the Muslims kill, and if I take... If the Muslims kill the animal, and I take the meat, I become animal-killer.

Dr. Schumacher: Well, that is...

Revatinandan: If I sell the meat if I cook the meat, if I distribute the meat if I eat the meat I'm the same as the man who slaughters the animal. This is Vedic... There's a Vedic verse that explains it.

Vichitravirya: As a matter of course.

Prabhupada: Eight kinds of criminals. In killing animals, there are eight kinds of criminals. That he has explained. One who is killing, one who is ordering, one who is purchasing, one who is eating, one who is cooking, in this way... Just like if a man is killed. If a man is killed and there are so many persons implicated, it does not mean that only one who has killed, he becomes criminal. All others who are implicated in that killing business, they are criminals. This is pollution.

Revatinandan: This, this...

Dr. Schumacher: Let me make myself clear. I happen to be a vegetarian.

Revatinandan: That's all right. We understand that. We're talking about the matter, the issue.

Dr. Schumacher: But you know, if one lives here in this society, even the elimination of these four things doesn't do it.

Revatinandan: Oh, it changes everything immediately.

Dr. Schumacher: I mean a fellow who builds himself a huge house when we have twenty-thousand actually, actually homeless people without a roof over their head in London... Now I would like those things to be raised into real spiritual problems.

Hansadutta: Yes, let them come here. We will...

Dr. Schumacher: And not to get satisfaction out of making idealistic...

Hansadutta: Yes, we have such a big place, but why they are not coming? We have temples all over the world, but people are not coming.

Prabhupada: Because there are restriction.

Dr. Schumacher: That is not, that is not... That doesn't meet my point. My point is...

Hansadutta: Why not? If they have no place to live, let them come and live here. We are convinced that Krishna can provide place for any number of His...

Prabhupada: Millions.

Hansadutta: ...devotees. Any number.

Mr. Popworth: I found this the other day, and you'll forgive me making this point, but when I was in discussion, it was impossible for me to make a point without being interrupted so frequently that I failed to make my point at all. Now, can I beg for courtesy for our guest to listen to what he has to say. Then answer him.

Revatinandan: But... Just that this is interesting, that the solution is there...

Dr. Schumacher: But you haven't heard the problem yet.

Revatinandan: But the problem is that people cannot understand the solution. They cannot understand.

Prabhupada: But one thing...

Revatinandan: Why they cannot understand?

Prabhupada: Mister, yes... I forgot your name.

Mr. Popworth: John.

Prabhupada: John, Mr. John. That we follow strictly the Vedic injunctions, and unless we become God conscious, there cannot be any reformation in this world.

Mr. Popworth: I agree with that.

Prabhupada: That's all. And that God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. God is the supreme pure. You cannot approach God, you cannot understand God, in impure condition. And without God consciousness, there cannot be any purification. You try to understand this simple fact, that without God consciousness, you may prescribe so many things—they will be all failure, all failure. And God consciousness cannot be achieved without being pure. This is the problem. Now you can think over it.

Dr. Schumacher: I agree with that.

Prabhupada: Yes. You can defend your theory but that will not help purification of the society. That will not help. Take it for granted. You can make so many theories but if you remain impure, if you are not God conscious, all these theories will be useless. Harav abhaktasya kuto mahad-guna mano-rathe... [ Srimad-Bhagavatam 5.18.12]. This is simply mental speculation. Mano-rathena, hovering on the mental plane, you can jump from this to that, but that will not solve the problem. Mano-rathenasati dhavato bahih. So we do not act on mental speculation. It may be our credit or discredit. That is different thing. We simply follow the standard policy. That is Krishna consciousness.