You are thinking Krishna is gone, but Krishna is present by His instruction, by His name, by His form, by His quality, by His pastime, because He is absolute. Krishna is never absent. Simply we have to see, we have to make our eyes to see Krishna.

Representing Krishna As He Is

GUEST (2): In daily life, I mean, like our practical life, how sharanagati [surrender] could be implemented?

PRABHUPADA: Yes, sharanagati. Just like Arjuna. Arjuna was hesitating to fight but when he surrendered to Krishna he fought.

GUEST (2): He was lucky. Lord Krishna was right there with him.

PRABHUPADA: So Lord Krishna's instruction is there. That is Lord Krishna. There is no difference between Lord Krishna and His instruction. He is absolute. Just like these boys, they are serving Krishna. Lord Krishna is not present. Lord Krishna is present but you do not know how He is present. Lord Krishna is present by His name, Hare Krishna. This Krishna and the person Krishna is not different. That you do not know. You are thinking Krishna is gone, but Krishna is present by His instruction, by His name, by His form, by His quality, by His pastime, because He is absolute. Krishna is never absent. Simply we have to see, we have to make our eyes to see Krishna. Krishna is always present.

Premañjana-cchurita-bhakti-vilochanena santah sadaiva hridayeshu vilokayanti [Brahma-samhita 5.38] Those who are saintly person, they are seeing twenty-four hours, every minute, Krishna. Hridayeshu vilokayanti. How? Premañjana-cchurita. When there is love of Krishna. Just like ordinarily, if you love somebody, you will find him everywhere. So you have to develop your love for Krishna; then Krishna will be seen. Svayam eva sphuraty adah. Just like sun. You cannot see sun at night, but when sun becomes revealed before you, you can see sun and yourself and the whole world. Similarly, when Krishna will reveal, being pleased with your service and love, you will see Krishna, you will see yourself, you will see the whole world. So simply you have to... Just like one man is suffering from cataract. So by surgical operation make the eyes free from the cataract disease — he will see everything. Similarly, the cataract of your present eyes, material eyes, can be, I mean to say, relieved by Krishna prema. Then you will see Krishna.

Therefore Chaitanya Mahaprabhu recommended, prema pum-artho mahan. If anything has to be achieved within this world, that is Krishna prema. That we should engage our life, how to achieve Krishna prema. But we are not interested in Krishna prema. So that is illusion. Human life is meant for achieving that stage, Krishna prema, love of Krishna. Then life is successful.

sa vai pumsam paro dharmo
yato bhaktir adhokshaje
ahaituky apratihata
yayatma suprasidati [Srimad-Bhagavatam 1.2.6]

That is wanted.

Therefore this Krishna consciousness movement is meant for invoking the dormant love for Krishna that is there in everyone. Just like four or five years ago these boys, they did not know what is Krishna. And now their countrymen are surprised: "How these boys are after Krishna, mad after Krishna?" That means love of Krishna was there. It has simply be invoked. In the Chaitanya-charitamrita,

nitya-siddha krishna prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya
shravanadi-shuddha-chitte karaye udaya [Cc. madhya 22.107]

The Krishna prema, love of Krishna, is within everyone. That love is being expressed in so many ways. Actually that is love for Krishna. So when one invokes that love in proper condition, then he loves Krishna and loves everyone.

Here the so-called love is for some purpose. Just like we are... I have come to this country. My purpose is not to get some money from them. Because I think, "My Guru Maharaja ordered that 'You go to the Western countries,' " so I have come to the Western countries to give them Krishna. And because they, everyone has Krishna prema, they are accepting it. You must be favorable. But if you don't accept, it is impossible to give you. Therefore Krishna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja: [Bhagavad-gita 18.66] "You do." Krishna can force him but He is not forcing. Krishna is asking Arjuna, "Whatever..." Yathecchasi tatha kuru [Bg. 18.63], "Whatever you like, you can do." He does not force anyone because the living entity, part and parcel of God, he has got independence. So Krishna does not touch the independence of the living entity. He advises, "You do this. If you do this, then you will be saved." But if you do not do this, then Krishna is not responsible. You are responsible. Krishna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. So if you do that — you take Krishna's advice — then you are saved. But if you do not that, then you take your own responsibility. You travel in this cycle of birth and death and wander in different species of life, different planets. So that is your responsibility. Krishna comes down to instruct you this philosophy, this fact. Now it is up to you to accept or not. You have got the independence. Aham tvam sarva-papebhyo mokshayishyami ma shucah [Bg. 18.66]. This is the instruction of Krishna. Man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. Janma karma cha me divyam evam yo vetti tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti... [Bg. 4.9]. Mam upetya punar janma duhkhalayam ashashvatam, napnuvanti mahatmanah samsiddhim paramam gatah [Bg. 8.15]. That is the highest perfection; you go back to Krishna. If you don't go, that is your choice.

GUEST (2): What is this greatness, that, to know the divinity when Lord Krishna says that "Those who know that I am divine and..." Janma karma cha me divyam [Bg. 4.9]. How... What is the real meaning of knowing it, I mean. I read it ten times...

PRABHUPADA: That is also: tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34]. You find out somebody who can instruct you. But you find out — pranipata. You surrender, not with challenge. And seva [offer service]. And then you ask him and you know it. But if you have no pranipata [submissive inquiry], no seva [service], simply challenging spirit, you'll never know it. That is not the process. If you want to know, then you must find out somebody where you can surrender. And you must... Surrender means you must render service to him, and then you can ask him and he'll give you. Upadekshyanti te jñanam jñaninas tattva-darshinah. That is the process. If you are serious to know, then you find out somebody where you can surrender. Because Krishna also wants surrender, so you have to surrender to His representative. Then you will know.

GUEST (2): And can one not directly surrender to Krishna through his own feelings and heart and...?

PRABHUPADA: No. No, that is not the process. Chaitanya Mahaprabhu teaches, gopi-bhartuh pada-kamalayor dasa-dasanudasah [Cc. Madhya 13.80]. He wants to become the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of the servant of Krishna. That is the process. If you want to know Krishna directly, it is not possible. Otherwise why Krishna says, tad viddhi pranipatena pariprashnena sevaya [Bg. 4.34: "Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth."]? And how you can approach Krishna?

GUEST (2): Chanting His names, surrendering to Him, feeling love for Him, doing service. Is that not or would that not take one person to...?

PRABHUPADA: No, that is not the way. Krishna says, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarshayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. You have to accept the parampara, disciplic succession. That is a challenge, that "I don't want to surrender anyone."

GUEST (2): No, not challenge... I'm not saying... I mean, I'm not...

PRABHUPADA: No, it is not possible. Krishna accepted Himself a guru. Lord Chaitanya Mahaprabhu accepted a guru. They are God Himself. So how you can accept: "I can approach Krishna without guru"? Guru-krishna-kripa. Krishna... When actually you want Krishna seriously — you do not know who is guru — then Krishna will give you a guru. Just like Dhruva Maharaja. He was advised by his mother that "If you go to the forest you can see God." So he went there. But when he was very serious, then Krishna sent him Narada Muni. So if you are actually serious about Krishna, then Krishna will send you some of His representative and he will take charge of you. That is the process. If you do not find a guru, that means Krishna is not yet pleased, either you are not serious. Just like when you become serious of studying any subject matter, you find out some college, some institution. You cannot purchase the books and read at home and become expert engineer, expert, no. That is not the process. Therefore the Vedic knowledge is called shruti. Shrotriyam brahma-nishtham. Tad-vijñanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet, shrotriyam brahma-nishtham [Mundaka Upanishad 1.2.12]. So we have to hear by parampara system. You attend the lectures of a professor because he has heard. He has listened the same instruction from his professor. You don't go to a professor who has never gone to school and college. Do you go there? So this knowledge... As material knowledge is received by parampara, similarly, spiritual knowledge is received also by parampara. Krishna says in the Fourth Chapter, evam parampara-praptam imam rajarshayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. By parampara system. Sa kaleneha mahata yogo nashtah parantapa: "Because the parampara was lost, therefore the science was lost. Therefore I shall again say the same system to you [Arjuna]." Bhakto 'si priyo 'si me rahasyam hy etad uttamam: [Bg. 4.3] "I am trying to speak to you because you are My devotee. You are very dear friend." So similarly, one has to become a dear friend of Krishna and devotee of Krishna before he can understand what Krishna says. You see?

There are so many Bhagavad-gita editions in all the countries. So many big, big scholars presented Bhagavad-gita. There was not a single person converted to become Krishna conscious. Do you agree to this point? Before this movement not a single person... Now there hundreds and thousands are coming because the Bhagavad-gita is presented as it is, not with adulteration. Now our Bhagavad-gita As It Is... This is published by Macmillan. It is eleven hundred pages. They printed in July fifty thousand copies. That is finished. Now they are going to print second edition. Since 1968 they are publishing our Bhagavad-gita As It Is, and every year they are getting one edition. From the beginning... I think this is the fifth or sixth edition and their business manager, trades manager's report is that this Bhagavad-gita is increasing sales, others dwindling, because it is presented as it is. We present Krishna as Krishna. Krishna says, "I am the Supreme Personality of Godhead." We present Krishna, the Supreme Personality of Godhead. Krishna says, "You surrender unto Me." We teach people, "You surrender to Krishna." Krishna says, man-mana bhava mad-bhakto mad-yaji mam namaskuru [Bg. 18.65]. We say, "You become Krishna bhakta. You offer worship to Krishna." We don't change anything. And therefore people are accepting. Adulteration, how long it will go on? You know very well. You are from Delhi. There is a Punjabi halwai (?), in the Chowry Bazaar. You know that?

GUEST (4): No, I have heard about it.

PRABHUPADA: Because he sells, I mean to say, confectionery made of pure ghee you'll find always hundreds of customers waiting. And there are many dalda ghee shops not so crowded. Some cheap men are going there. So anything you present pure, there will be automatic customer. And that is being proved. We are presenting Krishna as He is, and He is being accepted everywhere, all over the world. But as soon as you make adulteration Krishna, manufacture your concoction — "Krishna means this, Kurukshetra means this," all nonsense talk — immediately lost. Why should we do that, adulteration? There is no business adulterating. So many scholars, so many swamis, they have simply presented adulterated. Just like even Mahatma Gandhi says, "The Kurukshetra means this body." And where he got this meaning? Where is the dictionary meaning? You should speak something which must be authorized. Where is the dictionary where Kurukshetra is explained as this body? And Kurukshetra station is still existing. People are going to Kurukshetra for religious performances. Kuru-kshetre dharma-kshetre. Why should I interpret Kurukshetra, "the body"? This is going on. So that will not be effective. It may be effective, a few person, somebody's admirer. But it will not go far above that. But if you present as it is, it will be accepted by any real inquirer.

GUEST (2): Gita Press, Gorakhpur, has those publications. I have one of them.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Gita Press has got different versions also. Gita Press also tried to preach Gita since forty, forty years. But Bhagavad-gita was, published by Gita Press, was not in the Western countries. And we published this Bhagavad-gita As It Is in 1968. It is now all over the world. And the Macmillan Company, the biggest publisher of the world, they are taking interest. Not only this book. For this book they are taking gradually all our books. So our point is: present Krishna as it is. That is real Indian culture. Don't present Krishna adulterated. Your country will be glorified. The whole world will accept that India has got something to give. You are simply now beggar. So I have come to this country not to beg, but to give. That is my mission. And they are feeling, "Yes, we are getting something substantial."

GUEST (3): There is one question which many people have asked. You don't have to answer them but sometimes they say, "Why is it that Hare Krishna movement is so popular in this country, has so many centers, and not that many centers in India where Lord Krishna...?"

PRABHUPADA: He does not know. He is a foolish man. In India there are millions of centers. He does not know that. Simply if you go to Vrindavana you'll find five thousand temples. He does not know. He speaks nonsense. He speaks nonsense. The man who has spoken like that, he is a nonsense. He does not know what is the condition of India. Mass India, every person knows Krishna. Every person is a temple of Krishna. He does not know. He has spoken nonsense.

GUEST (3): He has seen the book and from where the centers are listed, that's all. He is...

PRABHUPADA: No, we have got center in Bombay. No, I have... My personal centers are not there. But just like Gita Press. They are also publishing Bhagavad-gita, millions of copies every month, and that is being distributed in India. So why does he say, "Indians, they do not know"? That is foolishness. Every Indian knows what is Krishna.

GUEST (2): You're talking about the center, Hare Krishna.

GUEST (3): Yeah, they look at this point of view because they think that's the only movement which is associated with Lord Krishna, but Lord Krishna is almost in every home in India.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Janmashtami, Krishna's birthday, is observed by every Indian still, although artificially they are being checked not to take to Krishna. Krishna is presented by government in so many bad way. You see? In government there is a paper. It is called "Indian Culture," something. In that paper Krishna is depicted as a bil boy. (?)

GUEST (3): What?

PRABHUPADA: Bil boy means just like black, Negro. And He is worshiped. Such a rascal. Krishna is worshiped, and for Krishna worship so many Vedic literature, and government is presenting Him as bil boy. Just see what kind of government we have got.

GUEST (2): Is that right? It is surprise to me.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. You'll find they have got paper, "Indian Culture," or... Yes. One Mr. Ananda, he has written that nonsense article.

GUEST (3): Of course, I have seen before 1963, before I came to this country.

PRABHUPADA: So government is presenting Krishna like that. Dr. Radhakrishnan has spoken like that. Yes. What he has spoken?

SYAMASUNDAR: Krishna was an aboriginal chief, tribal chief.

PRABHUPADA: Such poor fund of knowledge, he is advertised as great scholar. He has no knowledge, and he writes Bhagavad-gita. And now he is... For this offense he is now dead body. He cannot recognize any man, like this. He cannot say, "I am hungry." His daughter is always attending, giving some food, sitting idly. Just... What is the month?

SYAMASUNDAR: In Madras? We were there in February.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. February. Yes. I was there. I saw him. I saw Mr. Raja Gopala Acarya with him. So he is a dead body, living dead body.

GUEST (2): Raja Gopala Acarya has also written a lot of books.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. Not lot of. Some books he has written. So our request is to the Indians especially that we have got something to give to the world. Simply don't beg. Give something. Then you will be honored. You cannot compete with them by technology, by learning here. That is not possible. If you can give them something, that is Krishna consciousness.

GUEST (2): How far is samskara powerful like...?

PRABHUPADA: Well, samskara you can change in a second. Samskara may be powerful. Krishna assures you, aham tvam sarva-papebhyo mokshayishyami. He will give you protection. Samskara means you did some sinful activities and you are suffering. But He gives you protection. Sarva-papebhyo. Then what is the meaning of samskara? You can change your samskara immediately by surrendering to Krishna. Why you are so much concerned with samskara? He says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam sharanam... [Bg. 18.66], aham tvam sarva-papebhyo moksha... The samskara as effects of sinful activities, that is troublesome. So He gives you protection. Ma shucah, "Don't worry." Why don't you take this? You don't want to change your samskara, and who can help you? That is a different thing. You don't want to change. Otherwise Krishna is ready to give you all help. How their [referring to his American disciples]samskara is changed? From the very beginning of their life they are addicted to these principles: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. How they have changed? They don't touch it. How it has become possible?

GUEST (2): I believe they were great yogis in their past lives.

PRABHUPADA: And why you not?

GUEST (2): I don't know that.

PRABHUPADA: Because you don't surrender. That is the fact. If you surrender, you become also great yogi.

yoginam api sarvesham
mad-gatenantaratmana
shraddhavan bhajate yo mam
sa me yuktatamo matah [Bg. 6.47]

He is first-class yogi who is always thinking of Krishna, topmost yogi. So you think of Krishna always; you'll become topmost yogi.

Don't be sorry. Indians, generally they say, "Oh, we know everything about Krishna. What we have to learn?" Yes. When they [referring to his American disciples] go to some Indian, they say like that. What do they say?

SYAMASUNDAR: "We know all these things."

GUEST (2): I don't say I know everything.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. What is that Madrasi gentleman?

SVARUP DAMODAR: Chiwari? Dr. Chiwari?

PRABHUPADA: Yes. In your...

SVARUP DAMODAR: Oh, Krishnamurti.

PRABHUPADA: Ah. They think, "Oh, what we have to learn from them about Krishna? We are all-knowing." And you were speaking, some of your Madras colleagues, they come here and immediately they learn how to eat meat.

SVARUP DAMODAR: Before they came they were not eating meat, but when they come here they normally, they buy it, they cook it, and they not only just... They buy, themselves, and they do everything.

PRABHUPADA: London... Practically cent percent Indians, they eat meat.

GUEST (4): Swamiji, what is the role of meat-eating in...

PRABHUPADA: Meat-eater means sinners. He cannot understand Krishna.

GUEST (4): Well, where is it...?

PRABHUPADA: It is said in the shastra, striyah suna panam dyutam yatradharmash chatur-vidhah: "Four kinds of sinful activities: illicit sex life, striyah; suna, the animal slaughter; panam, intoxication; dyutam, gambling." These are the four pillars of sinful life. So you have to break these pillars of sinful life. Then you can understand Krishna. They [meaning his disciples] have broken. On my word they have broken the first four pillars and therefore they are advanced.

GUEST (4): I have had several people ask my why I don't eat meat and why Indians, some Indians don't eat meat. And I could not give them a convincing answer.

PRABHUPADA: But that is there. It is stated in the shastra. These are four sinful activities. upadekshyanti tad jñanam jñaninas tattva-darshinah. You have to take knowledge from tattva-darshi, jñani, not from some people, nonsense. What is the value of some people?

GUEST (5): How to identify a true learned man?

PRABHUPADA: That you have to become a learned man. If you are a fool, how you can understand who is learned man? You have to become a learned man. Is it not? Otherwise you will be cheated. Anyone will come — "I am learned man. I am God" — and you will be cheated, if you do not know what is God, what is learned man. So first of all you have to become learned man. Then you will understand who is learned man.

GUEST (2): But to become learned, you go to so-called learned people, and you go to so-called learned people. How do you know that those so-called learned are...

PRABHUPADA: That has spoiled our Indian culture. That has spoiled our Indian culture. Everyone become "learned man"; everyone become a "spiritualist". That's another... So best thing is to... Why don't you accept Krishna as the most learned man? That will save you. Everyone accepts Him, all the acharyas — Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Shankaracharya, Lord Chaitanya. So why don't you accept Krishna? Why you're searching after learned man? Here is the best learned man. Simple truth. If you simply argue, that is a different thing. But if you want really learned man, Krishna is here. Take Krishna as He is; then you learn everything.