Beyond Hardwired

Reality and Non-reality

Wake Up to Your Real State of Consciousness Hansadutta das

So this chanting of the holy name of Krishna, is not a ritual. It's not a religious practice. It's a scientific method to bring us, or elevate us to the state of Krishna consciousness, the state of spiritual awareness. Just as a sleeping person—although he's in that state—if he hears... if he hears us calling, "Wake up, John, wake up!" the sound penetrates his state and brings him to this waking state. Sometimes we have the experience while we're sleeping... we have some unusual dream, and we actually begin to think, "This is too strange; I must be sleeping." We've all had this experience, and as soon as we do, we wake up. more

Srutakirti: Just like that man who wrote the letter yesterday. He's prepared to spend the rest of his life understanding the transfer, the transmigration of the soul instead of just accepting it in the Gita [Bhagavad-gita]. He's going to spend his whole life.

Prabhupada: No, no. His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. He's a rascal. He may waste his time in that way. What can be done? His non-acceptance means he's a rascal. It's evident. Anyone knows that "After this, I will get another body." You are all young men. You know that you will get after some years a body like me. So what is the difficulty to understand that we are changing body?

Paramahamsa: So actually it's useless to try to give any more proof other than that.

Prabhupada: That is sufficient for an intelligent man. That is sufficient.

Paramahamsa: So if a scientist or someone who has some degree in science comes to our movement, should we encourage him to try to prove through science the Krishna conscious principle of transmigration and eternal quality of the soul?

Prabhupada: Not necessary. Not necessary.

Paramahamsa: Better if he just...

Prabhupada: It is not that if we prove scientifically there is soul, if there is scientific proof, not that all the people of the world will become Krishna conscious, even if you do that. So it is useless. You simply understand what is stated by Krishna.

Harikesa: Can a material calculation prove a spiritual fact?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: Can a material calculation prove...

Prabhupada: No. Materialists cannot understand spiritual subject matter. It is not for them.

Harikesa: So there is a project in Los Angeles where some psychologists are examining all the devotees.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: Some psychologists are there. They are doing a laboratory test on all the devotees.

Prabhupada: Yes, he may study in his own way, but he will not profit.

Harikesa: He will not profit. So this, the findings, even if they are published will not profit?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: The findings? They are going to...

Prabhupada: So what is their findings? The devotees are working on the soul platform, but he does not know what is soul.

Siddha-svarup: What are these experiments?

Harikesa: They're really far out. Actually, they're crazy...

Prabhupada: The psychology is on the mental platform.

Harikesa: Yes.

Prabhupada: So what he will understand about spiritual platform?

Harikesa: Actually they can't. They put these little things around fingers with wires and heads and they find that the readings are...

Prabhupada: And our devotees also agreed to sit down like that?

Harikesa: Yes. I thought it was ridiculous.

Srutakirti: They're probably getting some money for doing it.

Harikesa: Every week they go, and every week another man comes, and they give all of these tests, psychological tests. We would say yes or no to different questions, material questions.

Prabhupada: So why do they agree to?

Harikesa: They're being, more or less, forced to.

Prabhupada: Forced?

Harikesa: Yes.

Srutakirti: They're probably being paid.

Upendra: This is referring to that, in that transcendental meditation they have a chart that after transcendentally meditating, they are calm. But the result is that after chanting Hare Krishna, the devotees are more calm, and they can remain calm more than this result of the transcendental meditation.

Harikesa: But actually, that's not true because some...

Prabhupada: That transcendental meditation, that is a bogus humbug. So they are making experiment. So in that way it is good for us, that they're better than transcendental meditation.

Harikesa: But sometimes the devotees become very excited, you see, when we chant and the test goes up.

Upendra: No, but this is... Dharmadhyaksha was... He did it. The same result, they have to act the same way. They have to chant their japa nicely. And then the transcendental meditationist will meditate his way. But the results are coming out better in Krishna consciousness. Dharmadhyaksha, at least, and Guru dasa said, so I'm not sure. It hasn't been working yet.

Prabhupada: In the Bhagavad-gita it is said that beyond the senses, the mind is there. Beyond the mind, the intelligence is there. Beyond the intelligence, the soul is there. So they are studying the mind. They are not even on the intelligence platform, and what to speak of spiritual platform? Mano-rathena asato dhavato, bahih. These rascals, those who are on the mental plane, they will remain materialists. That's all. They will not know, understand anything spiritual.

Harikesa: So even if someone were to read the results of such a test, it would not convince them.

Prabhupada: What...? What you...?

Siddha-svarup: They're testing after a material thing. Try to understand it. They're testing the mental plane and they're thinking that that's the spiritual plane.

Prabhupada: Their position is described in the Bhagavad-gita, avajananti mam mudha. These rascals, avajananti, I mean to say, cares a fig for Krishna, "Oh, Krishna is also a very big man, that's all." Just like the Arya Samaji [Arya Samaji Society] says in India, that "We don't accept Him as God, but He is a very big man, a very big politician, like that." So that is described in the Bhagavad-gita—avajananti mam mudha manushim tanum ashritam, param bhavam ajananto [Bg. 9.11]. The param bhavam, what is the actual significance, that is, they do not know. What is the actual significance of the soul and soul platform, spiritual..., that they do not know. They are studying from the mental platform. So they have to go beyond mental platform, avan manasa-gochara, beyond bodily mental platform. Then they will understand.

Harikesa: So we shouldn't bother with such tests?

Prabhupada: No.

Siddha-svarup: By submitting to them we're actually... We're endorsing that they are dealing with the spiritual.

Prabhupada: When they come first of all, you have to inform them that "We are working on the platform of the soul. What do you know about the soul?"

Harikesa: This psychologist has become a devotee.

Prabhupada: That is another thing. He might have failed in his mental working in the mental plane. Then he has come. That is another thing.

Harikesa: But still he wants to try and prove Krishna consciousness through this psychological testing.

Prabhupada: No, what he will prove, psychological...? Psychological means mental plane. How he will understand soul from the mental platform? That is not possible.

Bali-mardan: What they want to know is the effect of the, the effect on the mind of the soul.

Prabhupada: Effect will be good. As soon as one is on the platform of the soul, the intelligence, mind, body, everything will be good.

Bali-mardan: That is what they are studying.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is another thing. Just like if you get millions of dollars, ten dollars is already there. You haven't got to endeavor for ten dollars. Similarly, if one who is on the platform of soul... Yasmin vijñate sarvam evam vijñatam bhavati (Mundaka Upanishad 1.3). If you understand the platform of soul, then you understand the other platforms: the intellectual platform, mental platform, bodily platform. And platform of knowledge, pratyaksha, paraksha, aparaksha, adhokshaja, aprakrita. So aprakrita is this platform of the soul. Krishna's activities, that is aprakrita, completely far beyond these material ideas, material platform. Material platform, pratyaksha. Just like you want to see the arrangement. That is pratyaksha. Then aparaksha, accepting the authority's version. Pratyaksha, paraksha. Then aparaksha, then adhokshaja, beyond your mental speculation. Then aprakrita, spiritual. Spiritual platform is not understood by machine, material machine. Then what is the spiritual platform? Krishna is understood not by machine. Krishna says, bhaktya mam abhijanati: [Bg. 18.55] "Through devotion only." So devotion is not machine. That is spiritual activity.

Harikesa: So you cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: You cannot understand the consciousness of a devotee by testing his body or his mind.

Prabhupada: No, consciousness means... That is mental platform. Consciousness is also in different platform, bodily consciousness, mental consciousness, intellectual consciousness, then spiritual consciousness. Krishna consciousness is spiritual consciousness.

Harikesa: So there is no way they can understand. No way.

Prabhupada: How they will understand? First of all let them explain what does he mean by soul? That they cannot explain. They take mind as the ultimate, that's all.

Siddha-svarup: Yes. And they see whether or not the mind is moving like this or like this or like this or like that, and then they have a gauge which says, "This is perfect." So they're seeing... They're judging whether or not...

Prabhupada: But we say, "Any position on the mental platform, it is all nonsense." Mano-rathena sato dhavato bahih.

Harikesa: So the mind of a devotee is based on the activities of his spiritual practices.

Prabhupada: Mind of a devotee is upon Krishna. So what they will understand, that mind is in Krishna? What they will understand?

Harikesa: So according to different transcendental emotions, the mind will be agitated or calm or...?

Prabhupada: It is not mind. It is spirit soul. You also do not understand.

Harikesa: That's a fact.

Prabhupada: Spiritual platform is different. But the spiritual activities expressed through mind, through body, through intelligence. That's it.

Harikesa: Yes. So that will bewilder them, this expression.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: This expression through the..., it will bewilder them.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Siddha-svarup: See, the materialist is seeing that everyone is agitated, so the goal in their life is cessation of that agitation. They want to merge or cease their existence. They want to go into nothingness. So...

Prabhupada: Yes, that is their...

Siddha-svarup: ...this is what they're looking for. The transcendental meditator goes in so that the gauge doesn't make any motion. But a rock, if you put that same gauge on a rock it also doesn't make motion. Does that mean the rock is spiritual or that he's more advanced than someone else?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Siddha-svarup: You see? They're saying that perfection is no motion. They're saying that perfection is inactivity. So they already have in their mind what they think is perfect, and then they're going to see if this method helps a person to achieve calmness or whatever they're calling perfection.

Prabhupada: That is that Buddha philosophy, nirvana. Nirvana, stop all activities. Buddha philosophy.

Harikesa: So someone who's actually following the scientific method, when he comes up to these bewildering conclusions about a devotee, he will be forced to inquire into the spiritual consciousness? Therefore we might be able to say this is a bona fide thing.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Harikesa: Because they are bewildered—they will see the conclusions, they are bewildered—they will then have to inquire further, "Well, why is this? Why is this?" They will have to come to the spiritual platform to understand.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes.

Harikesa: Therefore we can make the devotees through this...?

Siddha-svarup: But they're bewildered already. They don't need to look at their graphs to become bewildered. [laughs]

Harikesa: But they don't think they're bewildered, so that's the difference.

Siddha-svarup: Well, when they see their graphs, they still may not think they're bewildered. They may make the conclusion...

Harikesa: No, they even admit they're bewildered.

Prabhupada: The reply was given by Socrates. He was condemned to death. So the judges inquired, "Mr. Socrates, what kind of grave you will like?" So he answered, "First of all, catch me. Then talk of grave." [laughter] So...

Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada...

Prabhupada: They are not on the spiritual platform, so all their studies are useless. They are studying with a pre-concept idea.

Siddha-svarup: Right. So that when you don't fit into their preconceived idea...

Prabhupada: It is called, in logic it is called prititio principia[typist unsure?]. So it is useless.

Paramahamsa: In our movement, Srila Prabhupada, we have that group of scientists who are preparing that book, The Origin of Life, but will they actually be able to prove anything through that book?

Prabhupada: Huh?

Paramahamsa: Will they actually be able to prove anything by scientific presentation or...?

Prabhupada: Yes, that is science. If you can prove it by experiment. Otherwise, it is not science, theory.

Paramahamsa: But how can they prove the existence of the soul through experiment?

Prabhupada: No, first of all let them prove by chemical composition they can produce life. Then we shall talk of soul. First of all let them, in the laboratory, let the chemicals be mixed up and produce a small ant. Then we shall understand.

Siddha-svarup: We don't need to make experiments.

Harikesa: They can make these little amoebas but they can't make ants.

Prabhupada: Amoebas, that is automatically... By perspiration it comes out. There are four sources of life: udbija, jarayuja, svedaja, and, what is other? Andaja. Andaja means life comes from the egg. That is called andaja. And life comes from, under certain circumstances... Just like trees, grass. It is called udbija. And then jarayaja, just like we human beings or animals, they come from the embryo. And svedaja. And some living entities come out from perspiration.

Harikesa: So they were saying in this experiment they made that they completely...

Prabhupada: Four kinds of generating process is there. So what they have studied? That germs come out perspiration, that is already accepted in the Vedas. Under certain circumstances the germs come by, what is called? Scientific name?

Siddha-svarup: I don't know.

Prabhupada: Just like bugs, bed bugs. Due to your perspiration of the body, the bed being unclean, they come.

Harikesa: So the capability was already there in like seed, and you just watered it.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

Harikesa: So when they said they created life in this laboratory experiment, the capability...

Prabhupada: But that also they cannot do. That also they cannot do.

Harikesa: But the capability was there and they just watered it. They...

Prabhupada: What is the capability?

Harikesa: There was one of these four circumstances for life in that test...

Prabhupada: Potency, that is potency.

Harikesa: Yeah. And they just made the circumstance proper so that life came.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Harikesa: That is their big thing on the path to becoming God.

Prabhupada: For the time being, let them be kicked by the God's servant, that's all. Then some day they will become God. For the time being, let them be kicked. That's all.

Harikesa: Actually the whole field of psychology is going towards yoga.

Prabhupada: Yoga?

Harikesa: Because they are trying to become calm and peaceful and control their body for long periods of time.

So we went to a convention two weeks ago, and they were all doing their scientific experiments, and they were trying so many different methods to enjoy sex life and be happy, and then the last day we had a big kirtana [congregational chanting of the holy names] for two and a half hours. And all of these people who were so frustrated by all of their other methods came, psychologists and professors and chairmens of department, and little old ladies, and they were all jumping up and down in ecstasy for two and a half hours.

Prabhupada: Just see.

Harikesa: And they said, "Oh, this is the best process. Because this is joyful realization." They said, "You people really have something here."

Prabhupada: So in that way, if they understand, that is good.

Harikesa: That seemed to be the only way they'll understand.

Siddha-svarup: So that's more effective than making some experiments and bringing them some graphs.

Harikesa: Also they loved prasadam.

Prabhupada: No, no. That they are realizing, that how these hippies, they have given up everything, and they are now enjoying sankirtana. That they are realizing. Because they know most of our devotees coming from the hippie community. So they are surprised, "How the hippies they have given up everything and they're enjoying sankirtana?" That is already their problem, another, that "There must be something." Therefore these big, big professors study. [break]

Harikesa: ...one place in Chaitanya-charitamrita where Krishnadasa Kaviraja says that "You mental speculators, put your speculation to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu." He says something like that. If you were to speculate, speculate about Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, the greatness of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu.

Prabhupada: I don't think there is anything.

Harikesa: Maybe I'm misquoting.

Siddha-svarup: Not mental speculate; analyze.

Harikesa: Analyze?

Prabhupada: Chaitanyer dayar katha kara vichara: "Just analyze the merciful contribution of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu with others." That you have already experienced, that they experimented in so many ways, but as soon as they come to Chaitanya Mahaprabhu's mercy, sankirtana, they become immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest thing." So that is vichara, judgement. Chaitanyer dayar katha. There are many contribution of the world, many scientists, many physiologists, many psychologists... But Kaviraja Gosvami says, "Compare with the contribution of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu. Then you will be surprised." Oh! Just like they became surprised, immediately, "Oh, this is the nicest." That is stated by Kaviraja Gosvami, that "The merciful contribution given by Chaitanya Mahaprabhu- compare with any other contribution of the world, scientist, physiologist and this and that. You will see this is the best." Chaitanyer dayar katha karaha vichara. [break]

Siddha-svarup: I know of the experiments that these men are doing. They're connected... They have gone to the Buddhists. They've gone to Buddhist monks and various people that are into voidism, and they've made these tests, and it comes out that there's no activity. So they're seeing this as being the goal. They're trying to see if the same perfection, result of perfection, is achieved by the chanting. They already have a preconceived notion of what perfection is, and if they're testing to see if...

Prabhupada: To that standard.

Siddha-svarup: Yeah, if we're up to that standard of perfection of the Buddhist monks or the Zen monks or transcendental meditators or whatever. So I think it's a very bad thing to take part in that thing.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Siddha-svarup: Because they'll simply try to... Anyway, it's... Sometimes because these people have big titles like psychologist or professor and they have many machines and authoritative-looking instruments, we become deceived into thinking that they are authorities of some sort, and we let them dictate to us. [break]

Prabhupada: Why they do not study that why these devotees have given up intoxication, which the government failed to stop?

Siddha-svarup: Yes.

Prabhupada: It is practical.

Siddha-svarup: Yeah, it's an easy enough thing to study.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Siddha-svarup: It's an easy thing to study, simple.

Prabhupada: Why these devotees, they have given up intoxication? Apart from other items. The government, especially in U.S.A., they are spending millions of dollars to stop this intoxication, L.S.D. So why they have failed? And why Krishna consciousness movement has become successful? What is the psychology?

Siddha-svarup: It seems that these people don't know how to be simple.

Prabhupada: Well, they have no spiritual information. That is the... Therefore the first education is to understand what is spirit. Then spiritual knowledge is... They do not know what is spirit. ...imani bhutani bhavanti. That is spirit, the original source of everything. This body, original source is the spirit. As soon as the spirit is not there, the body will not grow. They are seeing actually. Therefore the original source is the spirit. Why the dead child does not grow? Or dead young man does not grow? They have not studied still, what is the cause? If it is chemical, then inject some chemical, if you know it, and make it grow. Is there any... Why they cannot do it? Why do they say it is chemical? Chemical you have got in your possession. So inject the dead child and it will grow, then it is correct. And where is that? Simply bogus propaganda. And we have to accept it? Either they must say that "Yes, it is chemical, but we did not find that chemical."

Siddha-svarup: So they have to admit their failure.

Prabhupada: Huh?

Siddha-svarup: So that means they're not sure it's a chemical.

Prabhupada: Then?

Siddha-svarup: If they say they haven't found it, they have to admit that they're not sure.

Prabhupada: Why do they not inject chemical in the dead body? Harikesa? What is their answer, these rascals' answers? If they know it is out of chemical, then inject that chemical in the dead body and let him come back again in life. What do they say?

Harikesa: They're a little puzzled about that one.

Prabhupada: Puzzled means they are rascals. Why a scientist should be puzzled? Then you are rascal, admit it. If I know my business correct, why shall I be puzzled? That means rascal. You are rascal, and you are theorizing only. What is the value of your statement?

Siddha-svarup: Actually, the chemicals are already there in a body which has just, someone has just left the body, the soul has just left, all the chemicals are there. There's nothing missing.

Harikesa: Well, they will say there's a slight difference and that slight difference is enough.

Prabhupada: But you do not know what is that slight difference.

Siddha-svarup: It is a slight difference. The soul is missing. [laughs]

Prabhupada: If the chemical is missing you can replace the chemical.

Siddha-svarup:. Right. Do they say it's a slight difference in chemical composition?

Harikesa: Yes, there's just a slight difference with some of the chemicals...

Prabhupada: What is that difference? That also you cannot explain.

Siddha-svarup: What is the difference? Do they know? Or do they say they know?

Harikesa: Well they haven't found it yet.

Prabhupada: Well, that's it still they are talking of chemical... They did not find what is the original cause; still, they are suggesting this is the cause.

Harikesa: Because they are finding so many cures to diseases, they are trying now...

Prabhupada: What disease? What they have...? Have they found any cure for the cancer?

Siddha-svarup: Cancer?

Harikesa: For certain diseases they are...

Prabhupada: Certain diseases. Then we are calling of disease.

Ambarisa: There's always new diseases though.

Siddha-svarup: That's the whole thing. Like cancer is a new disease.

Ambarisa: For every old disease they find a cure for, there's a new disease.

Prabhupada: No cure. They simply find out... They say, "It is better medicine," but it is not cured. What disease they have cured? What... Name particular disease, "This disease is cured."

Harikesa: Well, they have some smallpox vaccine, and no one gets smallpox any more.

Prabhupada: Yes, does it mean smallpox is stopped all over the world?

Harikesa: It's very much cut down. There's hardly any smallpox...

Prabhupada: Very much cut down, but it's very much increasing in another side.

Siddha-svarup: No, no, they have smallpox.

Harikesa: In America there's no smallpox. So that means here...

Prabhupada: That is all right. It is due to poverty, uncleanliness. So that is known to everyone. The smallpox takes place amongst the poorer class, unclean class. In India also, that is there. No gentleman's house, there is smallpox. Only these lower class, unclean.

Siddha-svarup: Where there's no facility for sanitation...

Prabhupada: If you remain unclean, all diseases will come. Where is the cure?

Harikesa: They also have this thing where they're freezing bodies just before they die.

Prabhupada: That is another nonsense.

Harikesa: Later on, they will unthaw them...

Prabhupada: Later on.

Harikesa: ...when they find the cure and cure it.

Siddha-svarup: They promised that man? [laughs] So they are doing good for that person?

Prabhupada: Everything, "Later on. Wait. Take this post-dated check." "And where is money, sir?" "Wait. You have got the check. That's all right."

Siddha-svarup: They are making promises.

Devotee: The scientists who are saying that they're going to do this, they'll be also in the same position after some years.

Siddha-svarup: Right, they're promising this person they freezed that "We will thaw you out later," but they cannot even promise themself that they won't die that night in a car accident or die from some disease themselves. So how can they promise that "In a while we will thaw you out"? They're simply cheating the people.