The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men.

Graduating to gut fish and sweep floors

Need for training first- and second-class men

PRABHUPADA: And to serve under somebody, that is shudra. So at the present moment people are being educated to serve under somebody. Technology, one is very expert in some particular line of technology, say, computer machine... You know how to operate. It is a big qualification. But unless he gets a job under some big establishment, he is useless. He cannot live independently. The first-class man will live independently. The second-class man also will live independently. And the third-class men, they will also live independently. And those who cannot live independently, they are fourth-class men. So at the present moment we are simply creating fourth-class men. So fourth-class men, they are prone to be degraded. If you don't raise them to become first-class, they must degrade. So that is the position of the present civilization. They are creating all fourth-class men, and gradually they are degrading. So now you should take up very seriously how you can create some first-class men. First-class, second-class, third-class also. If you simply remain in the fourth grade, technology... Technology means he has to serve under somebody. This industry, that is also the same thing. Hundreds and thousands of men are working. They are fourth-class men. And shudra. Just like formerly in Indian village... Still there are. They are self-supported. Suppose there is a blacksmith. If you require some black iron instrument, you go there and he will prepare immediately. Say, an oil crusher, extracting oil. So weaver, self-supported. Now these things have been taken in larger scale. That is called industry. But actually these things are meant for the shudras, fourth-class men. So the problem is that if we keep men fourth-class or increase only fourth-class men, so these things are automatic, the resultant action. Therefore, in the western countries especially, everywhere, all over the world, the attempt should be how to create first-class, second-class. At least these two classes required: good politicians, administrators, and good advisors. So this program we are placing before the world. This is Krishna consciousness movement. So I would suggest that in your country you are resourceful. You can take up this movement very seriously. And it is not expected that cent percent of the population will become first-class, but there must be ideal groups of first-class, second-class, third-class and the rest, fourth-class. That is required.

MAYOR: It takes a great deal of discipline to try to achieve these ideals, and that's one thing that seems to be difficult these days, especially in young people, to have any sense of the need for discipline at all.

PRABHUPADA: Hmm?

JAGADISA: He says young people today have no sense of discipline. They don't know what it means to be...

PRABHUPADA: How they can be? They are not trained up. They are not trained up from the very beginning. For being trained up, there is another four divisions, brahmachari, grihastha, vanaprastha, sannyasa. These are the training divisions. So for the first-class, second-class, third-class, all the students, they are trained up as brahmachari, student life. Brahmachari means celibacy, live under the direction of the teacher and accept all kinds of hardship under the teacher's or spiritual master direction. Children, they can easily take it. If a child, a small child, I ask him, "My dear child, you take my shoes and keep it there," he will immediately agree. He has no sense, "Oh, he is asking me to take his shoes." He will immediately agree. Even he is very rich man's son. So this life is advised that a student live just like a menial servant of the teacher or the spiritual master. And they agree. We have got good instances. And he is coming from the first-class family, brahmana family or kshatriya family or vaishya family, first, second, third. So even shudra family, he can learn also. So brahmachari. Then he is, if he can remain without wife or without opposite sex, then he continues to remain as brahmachari. He is encouraged. This process encourages to remain brahmachari, that "Don't take to sex life, it is entailed with so many difficulties. Practice to remain a brahmachari. You'll save so much trouble." But if he is unable — the teacher sees-Then he is allowed to marry, marriage. If he is trained up brahmachari, when he marries, he lives with wife under rules and regulation, not like cats and dogs. And then, because he had previous training, at a certain age he gives up family life. That is called vanaprastha. The vanaprastha life is accepted, generally, after fiftieth year, not earlier. Then the husband and wife travels all over, I mean to say, spiritual, sanctified places. In India there are so many places. So in this way, there is no sex in the vanaprastha. Simply the wife remains as assistant. And she also practices austerities. And then the husband, when he is fully mature, he sends wife back to his elderly children to take care of her and he takes sannyasa. So this is spiritual advancement, and in sannyasa life, one is absolutely dedicated for the service of God. So in this way his life becomes perfect. And according to his perfection, he gets next birth in higher planetary system. In the upper planets, planetary system, there is Svargaloka up to the third-class man. And then, above that, there are Janaloka, Maharloka, Tapaloka, Satyaloka, Brahmaloka. And beyond that, there is spiritual world. So in this way life becomes perfect.

If you want, you can go to the spiritual world. Spiritual world means no more accepting this material body. And so long we are in this material world we repeat one body after another. And if we degrade ourself to become criminals, then we degrade to the hellish planets down this universe. So human civilization means by nature's way, by evolutionary process, he has come to this body of human being. He should now decide that whether he should remain in this chain of birth and death or he should get out of it and go to the spiritual world. This training required.

So throughout the whole world there is no such institution to study all this fact. They are going just like fourth-class men. They have decided out of their own accord that there is no life after death. Young men say that there is no old age, but nature will not agree. Your next life is old age. That is natural. You cannot say, "No, no, I don't believe in it." You believe or not believe, it will come. Similarly, you believe or not believe, your next life is there. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita.

dehino 'smin yatha dehe
kaumaram yauvanam jara
tatha dehantara-praptir
dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13]

TAMAL KRSNA: You want the translation to it?

PRABHUPADA: Yes.

TAMAL KRSNA: [reads:] "As the embodied soul continually passes, in this body, from boyhood to youth to old age, the soul similarly passes into another body at death. The self-realized soul is not bewildered by such a change."

PRABHUPADA: So this education is required. America is resourceful and they are intelligent. And the movement is already there, Hare Krishna movement, people are appreciating gradually. So if we get little cooperation from the authorities, we can push on this movement more solidly.