Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains.

Helter Skelter Skeletons

Vedas more authoritative than bones

PRABHUPADA: Apelike men or manlike apes are still existing now, alongside human beings. If one thing has been developed by the transformation of another thing, then that original thing should no longer be in existence. When in this way a cause has produced its effect, the cause ceases to exist. But in this case we see that the cause is still present, that there are still monkeys and apes.

STUDENT: But monkeys did not cause men; both came from the same common ancestor. That is their account.

PRABHUPADA: We say that we all come from God, the same ancestor, the same father. The original father is Krishna. As Krishna says in the Bhagavad-gita [Bg. 14.4], sarva-yonishu kaunteya: "Of as many forms as there are,..." aham bija-pradah pita: "I am the seed-giving father." So what is your objection to this?

STUDENT: Well, if I examine the layers of earth, I find in the deepest layers no evidence—

PRABHUPADA: You are packed up with layers of earth, that's all. That is the boundary of your knowledge. But that is not knowledge; there are many other evidences.

STUDENT: But surely if men were living millions of years ago, they would have left evidence, tangible evidence, behind them. I could see their remains.

PRABHUPADA: So I say that in human society bodies are burned after death, cremated. So where does your excavator get his bones?

STUDENT: Well, that's possible, but—

PRABHUPADA: According to our Vedic system, the body is burned to ashes after death. Where, therefore, would the rascal get the bones? Animals are not burned; their bones remain. But human beings are burned, and therefore they cannot find their bones.

STUDENT: I'm just saying that it appears, through layer after layer of deposits in the earth, that biological forms tend to progress from simple and primitive forms to more and more complex and specialized ones, until finally civilized man appears.

PRABHUPADA: But at the present moment both simple and complex forms are existing. One did not develop into the other. For example, my childhood body has developed into my adult body, and the child's body is no longer there. So if the higher, complex species developed from the simpler, lower species, then we should see no simple species. But all species are now existing simultaneously. When I see all 8,400,000 species of life existing, what is the question of development? Each species exists now, and it existed long ago. You might not have seen it, but you have no proper source of knowledge. You might have missed it. That is another thing.

STUDENT: But all the evidence shows otherwise. Five hundred million years ago there were no land animals; there were only aquatics.

PRABHUPADA: That is nonsense. You cannot give a history of five hundred million years! Where is the history of five hundred million years? You are simply imagining. You say "historical evidence," but where is your evidence? You cannot give a history for more than three thousand years, and you are speaking about five hundred million. This is all nonsense.

STUDENT: If I dig far into the ground, layer by layer—

PRABHUPADA: By dirt you are calculating five hundred million years? It could be ten years. You cannot give the history of human society past three thousand years, so how can you speak of four hundred or five hundred million years ago? Where were you then? Were you there, so you can say that all these species were not there? This is imagination. In this way everyone can imagine and say some nonsense.

We accept evolution, but not that the forms of the species are changing. The bodies are all already there, but the soul is evolving by changing bodies and by transmigrating from one body to another. I have evolved from my childhood body to my adult body, and now my childhood body is extinct. But there are many other children. Similarly, all the species are now existing simultaneously, and they were all there in the past.

For example, if you are traveling in a train, you find first class, second class, third class; they are all existing. If you pay a higher fare and enter the first-class carriage, you cannot say, "Now the first class is created." It was always existing. So the defect of the evolutionists is that they have no information of the soul. The soul is evolving, transmigrating, from one compartment to another compartment, simply changing place. The Padma Purana says that there are 8,400,000 species of life, and the soul evolves through them. This evolutionary process we accept: the soul evolves from aquatics to plants, to insects, to birds, to animals, and then to the human forms. But all these forms are already there. They do not change. One does not become extinct and another survive. All of them are existing simultaneously.

STUDENT: But Darwin says there are many species, like dinosaurs, that are seen to be extinct.

PRABHUPADA: What has he seen? He is not so powerful that he can see everywhere or everything. His power to see is limited, and by that limited power he cannot conclude that one species is extinct. That is not possible. No scientist will accept that. After all, all the senses by which you gather knowledge are limited, so how can you say this is finished or that is extinct? You cannot see. You cannot search out. The earth's circumference is twenty-five thousand miles; have you searched through all the layers of rock and soil over the whole earth? Have you excavated all those places?

STUDENT: No.

PRABHUPADA: Therefore our first charge against Darwin is this: He says there were no human beings millions of years ago. That is not a fact. We now see human beings existing along with all other species, and it should be concluded that this situation always existed. Human life has always been there. Darwin cannot say there was no human life.

STUDENT: We don't see any dinosaurs existing.

PRABHUPADA: You do not see because you have no power to see. Your senses are very limited, so what you see or don't see cannot be authoritative. So many people—the majority of people—say, "I don't see God." Shall we accept, then, that there is no God? Are we crazy for being devotees of God?

STUDENT: No, but dinosaurs—

PRABHUPADA: But simply by dinosaurs being missing you cannot make your case. What about all the other species?

STUDENT: Many, many others are also extinct.

PRABHUPADA: Say I accept that many are extinct—because the evolutionary process means that as an earlier species gradually changes into a later species, the earlier vanishes, becomes extinct. But we see that many monkeys are still here. Man evolved from the simians, but simians have not disappeared. Monkeys are here, and men are here.

STUDENT: But still I'm not convinced. If we make geological investigations all over the world, not just here and there, but in many parts of the world, and in every case we find the same thing—

PRABHUPADA: But I say you have not studied all over the world. Has Darwin studied all the continents on this planet? Has he gone down into the depths of the seas and there excavated all the layers of the earth? No. So his knowledge is imperfect. This is the relative world, and here everyone speaks with relative knowledge. Therefore we should accept knowledge from a person who is not within this relativity.

STUDENT: Actually, Darwin hit upon his theory because of what he observed on his voyage in 1835 to the Galapagos Islands, off the coast of South America. He found there species that exist nowhere else.

PRABHUPADA: That means he has not seen all the species. He has not traveled all over the universe. He has seen one island, but he has not seen the whole creation. So how can he determine what species exist and don't exist? He has studied one part of this earth, but there are many millions of planets. He has not seen all of them; he has not excavated the depths of all the planets. So how can he conclude, "This is nature"? He has not seen everything, nor is it possible for any human being to see everything.

STUDENT: Let's just confine ourselves to this planet.

PRABHUPADA: No, why should we? Nature is not only on this planet.

STUDENT: Because you said that on this planet there were complex forms of living beings millions and millions of years ago.

PRABHUPADA: We are not talking about this planet, but about anywhere. You are referring to nature. Nature is not limited or confined to this planet. You cannot say that. Nature, material nature, includes millions of universes, and in each and every universe there are millions of planets. If you have studied only this planet, your knowledge is insufficient.

STUDENT: But you said before that millions of years ago on this planet there were horses, elephants, civilized men—

PRABHUPADA: Yes, yes.

STUDENT: But from hundreds of different sources there is no evidence.

PRABHUPADA: I say they are existing now—men, horses, snakes, insects, trees. So why not millions of years ago?

STUDENT: Because there is no evidence.

PRABHUPADA: That doesn't mean... ! You limit your study to one planet. That is not full knowledge.

STUDENT: I just want to find out for the time being about—

PRABHUPADA: Why the time being? If you are not perfect in your knowledge, then why should I accept your theory? That is my point.

STUDENT: Well, if you claim that millions of years ago there were complex forms of life on this planet—

PRABHUPADA: Whether on this planet or on another planet, that is not the point. The point is that all species exist and keep on existing by the arrangement of nature. We learn from the Vedic texts that there are 8,400,000 species established. They may be in your neighborhood or they may be in my neighborhood—the number and types are fixed. But if you simply study your neighborhood, it is not perfect knowledge. Evolution we admit. But your evolutionary theory is not perfect. Our theory of evolution is perfect. From the Vedas we know that there are 8,400,000 forms of bodies provided by nature, but the soul is the same in all, in spite of the different types of body. There is no change in the soul, and therefore the Bhagavad-gita [5.18] says that one who is wise, a pandit, does not see the species or the class; he sees oneness, equality. Panditah sama-darshinah [Bg. 5.18]. One who sees to the bottom sees the soul, and he does not find there any difference between all these species.

STUDENT: So Darwin and other material scientists who have no information about the soul—

PRABHUPADA: They're missing the whole point.

STUDENT: They say that all living things tend to evolve from lower to higher. In the history of the earth—

PRABHUPADA: That may be accepted. For example, in an apartment building there are different kinds of apartments: first-class apartments, second-class apartments, third-class apartments. According to your desire and qualification, as you are fit to pay the rent, you are allowed to move up to the better apartments. But the different apartments are already there. They are not evolving. The residents are evolving by moving to new apartments as they desire.

STUDENT: As they desire.

PRABHUPADA: Yes. According to our mentality at the time of death, we get another "apartment," another body. But the "apartment" is already there, not that I'm creating the "apartment."

And the classes of "apartments" are fixed at 8,400,000. Just like the hotel-keeper: he has experience of his customers coming and wanting different kinds of facilities. So he has made all sorts of accommodations to oblige all kinds of customers. Similarly, this is God's creation. He knows how far a living entity can think, so He has made all these different species accordingly. When God thinks, "Come on, come here," nature obliges. Prakriteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bhagavad-gita 3.27]: Nature is offering facility. God, Krishna, is sitting in the heart of the living entity as Paramatma, and He knows, "He wants this." So the Lord orders nature, "Give him this apartment," and nature obliges: "Yes, come on; here is your apartment." This is the real explanation.

STUDENT: I understand and accept that. But I'm still puzzled as to why there is no geological evidence that in former times on this planet there were more complex forms.

PRABHUPADA: Why are you taking geological evidence as final? Is it final? Science is progressing. You cannot say it is final.

STUDENT: But I have excavated all parts of the world, and every time—

PRABHUPADA: No. You have not excavated all parts of the world.

STUDENT: Well, on seven continents.

PRABHUPADA: Seven continents is not the whole world. You say you have excavated the whole world, but we say no, not even an insignificant portion. So your knowledge is limited. Dr. Frog has examined his three-foot-wide well, and now he claims to know the ocean.

Experimental knowledge is always imperfect, because one experiments with imperfect senses. Therefore, scientific knowledge must be imperfect. Our source of knowledge is different. We do not depend on experimental knowledge. Now you see no dinosaurs, nor have I seen all the 8,400,000 different forms of life. But my source of knowledge is different. You are an experimenter with imperfect senses. I have taken knowledge from the perfect person, who has seen everything, who knows everything. Therefore, my knowledge is perfect. Say, for example, that I receive knowledge from my mother: "Here is your father." But you are trying to search out your father on your own. You don't go to your mother and ask; you just search and search. Therefore, no matter how much you search, your knowledge will always remain imperfect.

STUDENT: And your knowledge says that millions of years ago there were higher forms of life on this planet.

PRABHUPADA: Oh, yes, because our Vedic information is that the first created being is the most intelligent, the most intellectual person within the universe—Lord Brahma, the cosmic engineer. So how can we accept your theory that intellect develops by evolution? We have received our Vedic knowledge from Brahma, who is so perfect.

Dr. Frog has studied his three-foot well, his little reservoir of water. The Atlantic Ocean is also a reservoir of water, but there is a vast difference. Dr. Frog cannot inform us about the Atlantic Ocean. But we take knowledge from the one who has made the Atlantic Ocean. So our knowledge is perfect.

STUDENT: But wouldn't there be evidence in the earth, some remains?

PRABHUPADA: Our evidence is intelligence, not stones and bones. Our evidence is intelligence. We get Vedic information by disciplic succession from the most intelligent. It is coming down by shruti, hearing. Vyasadeva heard from Narada, Narada heard from Brahma—millions and millions of years ago. Millions and millions of our years pass, and it is not even one day for Brahma. So millions and billions and trillions of years are not very astonishing to us, for that is not even one day of Brahma. But Brahma was born of Krishna, and intelligent philosophy has been existing in our universe from the date of Brahma's birth. Brahma was first educated by God, and His knowledge has been passed down to us in the Vedic literature. So we get such intelligent information in the Vedas.

But those so-called scientists and philosophers who do not follow this system of descending knowledge, who do not accept knowledge thus received from higher authorities—they can't have any perfect knowledge, no matter what research work they carry out with their blunt senses. So whatever they say, we take it as imperfect.

Our method is different from theirs. They are searching after dead bones, and we are searching after living brains. This point should be stressed. They are dealing with dead bones, and we are dealing with living brains. So which should be considered better?