Srila Prabhupada never authorized these men to become regular gurus. Especially not in this Oct 18th conversation.

Rebuttal to Rupanuga's Article on "I Stop for the Time Being"

The logic given by the GBC and now Rupanuga does not hold up. His recent (March 11) article deals with a conversation between Srila Prabhupada and several GBC on Oct 18th, 1977, concerning the initiation of one Bengali Gentleman.

Rupanuga, inline with the current GBC, take this conversation as evidence that Srila Prabhupada had stopped acting as initiator guru, having as of that date, given his order for the 11 ritviks to then act as regular initiator gurus. I herein refute their logic.

The Oct 18th conversation takes place, as Rupanuga states, because, "A Bengali gentleman has come from New York seeking initiation from Srila Prabhupada. But Srila Prabhupada has already deputed his ritvik acharyas, and he thinks Jayapataka should do the initiation." Yes, this is true. Even Rupanuga admits that Srila Prabhupada had deputed Jayapataka to act as ritvik, and here on Oct 18th is asking him to perform the initiation. Rupanuga does not make the argument that on Oct 18th Srila Prabhupada actually asked Jayapataka to become the initiator guru, but several current GBC have made that argument. I will address both ideas.

Rupanuga then quotes from the conversation starting at what he claims is the most relevant part. However, when we look at the beginning of that conversation we see that he actually misses very relevant aspects. Here is where the conversation actually begins on this topic:

So You Wanna Be a Guru...

As published in "Srila Prabhupada, His Movement and You" by Hansadutta das, this offer is still good today (March 18, 2009). Bring proof and collect your money. Click to enlarge

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Some Statistical Reflections on the Awesome Stature of the Acharya Hansadutta das
The point is: when the guru orders, then only one becomes guru. For instance, in the ashram, if the spiritual master does not ask or order his disciple to take food, then the disciple should fast. That is the discipline. Prabhupada ordered some disciples to "act as rittvik of the Acharya, " but he never ordered, "You become full guru acharya of ISKCON" to any disciple. Where is the order? It does not exist! more

PRABHUPADA: Hare Krishna. One Bengali gentleman has come from New York?

TAMAL KRSNA: Yes. Mr. Sukamal Roy Chowdury.

PRABHUPADA: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?

TAMAL KRSNA: Yes. Actually... Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

PRABHUPADA: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.

TAMAL KRSNA: Yes.

PRABHUPADA: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?

[Below is where Rupanuga started his quote - and his quote actually differs from what is in the Vedabase:]

BHAGAVAN: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list.

PRABHUPADA: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?

TAMAL KRSNA: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?

PRABHUPADA: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?

GIRIRAJA: It's clear.

PRABHUPADA: You have got the list of the names?

TAMAL KRSNA: Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

PRABHUPADA: And if by Krishna's grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again, or I may not be pressed in this condition to initiate. It is not good.

GIRIRAJA: We will explain to him so that he will understand properly.

PRABHUPADA: Hm? Hm?

GIRIRAJA: I said we will explain to the Bengali gentleman just as you have described to us, so that he'll be satisfied with this arrangement.

Rupanuga claims that, 'The key sentences here are not the ones containing the word “depute,” but rather the following: (1) “I stop for the time being,” (2) “And if by Krishna’s grace I recover from this condition, then I shall begin again.” '

However, I strongly protest that before we can understand the "I stop for the time being" sentence we must first understand the context of the conversation to know, in reality, what it is that Srila Prabhupada is referring to that he is stopping. And to do that, we must first properly understand the "depute" aspect in full context.

Go back to the very start of the conversation:

PRABHUPADA: So I have deputed some of you to initiate. Hm?

Srila Prabhupada declares that he has ("I have") deputed. Srila Prabhupada is speaking in past tense. He is speaking about something he has already done in the past. Not now, not on Oct 18th—but he is referring to that which has already deputed at some time in the past. (I point out the tense because there have been GBC members who have put forth the arugment that Srila Prabhupada was deputing Jayaptaka on Oct 18 to become regular guru. But, Srila Prabhupada is herein referring to having already deputed him in the past tense, not what he was newly deputing him to do that day).

Important is that Srila Prabhupada refers to what he had deputed Jayapataka to do: "to Initiate". In Srila Prabhupada's own words he says that he had already deputed those men to "initiate". And, we shall see as we continue with the conversation that he is referring back to the July 9th list of ritvik representatives, who had been deputed only to perform the ritvik aspects of the initiations. Thus, what Srila Prabhupada is referring to here by the single word "initiate" is in actuality a referrence to the ritvik aspects of the initiation process, only, and not to the full process of initiation.

  Continuing with the conversation:

TAMAL KRSNA: Yes. Actually... Yes, Srila Prabhupada.

PRABHUPADA: So I think Jayapataka can do that if he likes. I have already deputed. Tell him.

Again, Srila Prabhupada clearly uses the past tense: "I have already deputed". He has ALREADY deputed those men to "initiate", but only the ritvik aspect of the initiation.

TAMAL KRSNA: Yes.

PRABHUPADA: So, deputies, Jayapataka's name was there?

Again, past tense: "Jayapataka's name was there." Was Where???

   BHAGAVAN: It is already on there, Srila Prabhupada. His name was on that list.

It is obvious that those devotees present knew exactly what Srila Prabhupada was referring to. When Srila Prabhupada asks if Jayapataka's name was there, Bhagavan agrees that "it is already on there", "His name was on that list".

Bhagavan also is speaking in past tense. His name was already on that list.  That list. What is that list? Everyone—the GBC, everyone agrees that list refers to the ritvik representative list of 11 names given in the July 9th letter. That is the only list where Srila Prabhupada had given a list of men whom he had already deputed to 'initiate'. And that July 9th letter explicitly and clearly defines the specific type and limitation of the sort of initiations. What Srila Prabhupada here refers to by the word "initiate" clearly refers to just the ritvik aspects of the initiation process.

PRABHUPADA: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?

Now, here Srila Prabhupada is using present tense. On Oct 18th, 1977, Prabhupada is now deputing Jayapataka to do something. Previously Srila Prabhupada had deputed him and the other 11 men to act as ritvik representatives, but, today Srila Prabhupada is now giving something new for Jayapataka. What is that? Prabhupada is deputing 'him' (Jayapataka) to do 'this' at Mayapura. "This"? What is "this"? In the context of the conversation, to do that which Srila Prabhupada had already deputed him to do, in that List (July 9th letter)—and that is to perform the ritvik aspects of the initiation only. The only thing new that Srila Prabhupada is deputing JP to do on Oct 18th is to perform the ritvik initiations for Mayapura. In the July 9th letter Srila Prabhupada had stated that whoever is 'nearest', and since this was in Bengal and Jayapataka resided there, Srila Prabhupada is saying that Jayaptaka should then perform the ritvik initiation there. That is the only new thing that Srila Prabhupada is deputing, in present tense, on Oct 18th.

   Now we come to the part that obviously the GBC is misunderstanding and thus mis-presenting.

PRABHUPADA: So I depute him to do this at Mayapura, and you may go with him. I stop for the time being. Is that all right?

TAMAL KRSNA: Stopped doing what, Srila Prabhupada?

PRABHUPADA: This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples. Is it clear or not?

GIRIRAJA: It's clear.

Note carefully Srila Prabhupada's words and use of tense. Srila Prabhupada is now "stopping". Stopping what? Stopping that which he has already deputed his disciples to do in that list. And what is that? "This Initiation".

  The word this is very important. In previous email discussions I have had with GBC or their supporters over this issue, they take it that Srila Prabhupada is herein declaring that he is no longer going to act as the initiator guru, that he is declaring here that he is now stopping, or no longer performing initiations as the initiator guru. They argue that this statement means that from now onward those whom he had earlier appointed as ritviks would now become the initator guru, as Srila Prabhupada was now stopping.

  However, this logic does not make sense in the context of the conversation. Rather, up to this point, the entire conversation was regarding the ritvik aspects of Initiation that Prabhupada had already, in that list, deputed these men to perform. Within this conversation the aspect of who will be the regular guru has not been discussed. It was not part of this conversation. Rather, Srila Prabhupada was only referring to the ritvik aspects of the initiation process. Srila Prabhupada was only referring to that which he had already deputed his men on that list to do.

Thus, when Srila Prabhupada says that he is stopping "this" initiation we must understand that the word "this" is referring to the aspects of initiation that were being discussed in the same conversation—in context of the conversation itself.

  Note from the very beginning of the conversation that Srila Prabhupada simply used the word "Initiate" to indicate that which he had already deputed his men to do in the July 9th list, which was the ritvik aspects of the initiation process only. Here Srila Prabhupada says he is now stopping. He is asked what is it that he is stopping, and Srila Prabhupada says "This initiation". "This", the ritvik aspects that were being discussed. What clinches this understanding is that in the same sentence he connects "This initiation" to "I have deputed the, my disciples." Clearly, Srila Prabhupada, in his own words, is making the connection crystal clear. Since the entire conversation was only about the ritvik aspects of initiation that he had already deputed his men to do, the word "this" can only refer to the same topic that was being discussed, and Prabhupada makes this abundantly clear by saying, as "I have deputed". As he has already deputed those men to do (which is what the entire conversation was about), and that was the ritvik aspects of the initiation only.

  "This initiation" cannot be referring to the aspect of him accepting the disciple as guru, as this was not the topic being discussed in the conversation and neither was that what he had already deputed those men to do. Here "this initiation" and as "I have [already] deputed" are inseparably linked.

  Thus it is baseless for the GBC to construe that here Srila Prabhupada means that he is stopping the process of being the initiator guru. It is introducing a meaning for the word initiate that is outside the context of this conversation.

  There is another argument that many GBC have given in regards to this conversation.

That other argument is that via the July 9th list Srila Prabhupada had already stopped the ritvik aspects of initiation. Thus, the argument is if Srila Prabhupada had already stopped performing the ritvik aspects of initiation, then he would not be saying on Oct 18th that he is now stopping the ritvik aspects. Thus, following this logic they argue that Srila Prabhupada could only be referring to the aspect of being the actual guru. That he was stopping all aspects of initiation.

While this may seem, on first glance, to be solid logic, on careful examination it also doesn't hold water.

"This initiation. I have deputed the, my disciples". To understand what "this" refers to, we need to examine what exactly he had deputed those men to do in that July 9th list to see if Srila Prabhupada had indeed previously stopped performing that which he had previously deputed them to do, OR, if there is actually clear evidence that he did not stop "this" aspect of the ritvik initiaton process that he is herein refering to until Oct 18th!

The following is directly from the July 9th letter [after the list of 11 men is given, which are therein referred to as ritvik representatives]:

"In the past Temple Presidents have written to Srila Prabhupada recommending a particular devotee's initiation. Now that Srila Prabhupada has named these representatives, Temple Presidents may henceforward send recommendation for first and second initiation to whichever of these eleven representatives are nearest their temple. After considering the recommendation, these representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada by giving a spiritual name, or in the case of second initiation, by chanting on the Gayatri thread, just as Srila Prabhupada has done. The newly initiated devotees are disciples of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada, the above eleven senior devotees acting as His representative. After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book."

On Oct 18th clearly Srila Prabhupada is referring to the process of ritvik initiations that he had already deputed those 11 men to perform, as stated in that list, Juy 9th letter. So, here above, are the specific details as to what aspects of the initiation process Srila Prabhupada had deputed those men to perform. It is "this" aspect of initiation that Srila Prabhupada is now stopping.

  Nowhere in the Oct 18th conversation, or in the July 9th list referred to in that conversation is Srila Prabhupada ever speaking of ceasing to be the initiator guru. What he had deputed these men to do was that previously temple presidents had given the list of recommended new devotees to Srila Prabhupada, and that Srila Prabhupada, himself, and only he, made the final decision to accept those men or not.

The single unique feature of the July 9th letter is that Srila Prabhupada had now selected 11 men to make that final decision on his behalf, and he had given them the title as ritvik representatives, or ritvik acharyas. He had now authorized them to make the final decisions for whom should be initiated as a direct disciple of Srila Prabhupada, and select the names of the new devotees.

   All other aspects of the ritvik initiations were to remain unchanged and continue on as they were already doing. Here is the exact wording: "After the Temple President receives a letter from these representatives giving the spiritual name or the thread, he can perform the fire yajna in the temple as was being done before. The name of a newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him or her to Srila Prabhupada, to be included in His Divine Grace's "Initiated Disciples" book."

The Temple Presidents, who sent the letters of recommendation in the past to Srila Prabhupada, were to now send to the ritvik representative, and on getting the confirmation letter back, the Temple President was to perform the actual fire yajna in the temple, as they had been already doing before (before the July 9th letter).

Thus, the single unique feature of that July 9th list is that Srila Prabhupada had authorized those 11 men to make the final decision on his behalf. From then on, rather than Temple Presidents recommending the new initiates to Srila Prabhupada, they would now make those recommendations to the nearest ritvik representative, and the ritvik would make that decision on Srila Prabhupada's behalf.

That is it. That is the sum and substance of what the July 9th letter deputed those men to do. No more, no less.

Clearly, in that letter, Srila Prabhupada states that he remains the actual initiator guru, and that the new initiates will be his direct disciples.

On Oct 18th he repeatedly refers back to what he had previously deputed these men to do.

But, what about the argument that Srila Prabhupada had already stopped doing this as of July 9th, and, if so, then he could not be saying he is again stopping the same thing on Oct 18th?

The actual fact is, as is clearly shown in this Oct 18th conversation, the GBC had NOT yet implemented those aspects of the July 9th letter. How is that? Because, here it is on Oct 18th and the GBC have come to Srila Prabhupada informing him that this Bengali Gentleman wants to be Srila Prabhupada's disciple and they are asking Prabhupada to still make the decision as to whether Srila Prabhupada will accept him, and even how and who will perform the intiations.

Clearly, as of Oct 18th the GBC are still approaching Prabhupada and still requesting him to make the final decision. Yet, this making of the final decision is the entire sum and substance of the July 9th list. To make the final decision is the sum and substance of what he had deputed those men to do on July 9th. From then on temple presidents were to make the recommendations to the nearest ritvik, and those ritviks were to make the final decision on Srila Prabhupada's behalf and select the names. By actually doing this, then Srila Prabhupada would no longer need be directly - physically - consulted or involved.

But, here it is, Oct 18th, and the GBCs are still approaching Srila Prabhupada and still asking him to perform the very same duties that he had deputed those men to do on his behalf.

Thus, when we examine the entire context, by seeing what it was that Srila Prabhupada was referring to when he says "I am now Stopping 'this' initiation", as "I have already deputed" his men to do on his behalf, we clearly see that those men had not at all taken up that duty, and as of Oct 18th they are still approaching Srila Prabhupada, still asking him to do that which he had deputed them to do.

Thus, when Srila Prabhupada says that he is now stopping, when we view it within the context, we see that he is only refering to the aspect that he is now no longer going to be involved in making the final decisions. The sole topic of this conversation is about that which he had already deputed his men to do (make that final decision on his behalf), and yet, Srila Prabhupada clearly refered to this aspect by the single word 'initiate'.

This logic all makes perfect sense. No contradictions and no twisting or contortions. The logic is consistent throughout this conversation and is consistent with what he had deputed his men to do, consistent with the content of the referenced July 9th list.

On the other hand, the GBC idea that when Srila Prabhupada said 'this' initiation, that he meant the aspect of being actual guru, such logic is full of inconsistencies. The only topic of the conversation and the referenced list is about the ritvik aspects, specifically the duty of making the final decision. To say that 'this' now refers to being the actual guru is a topic that was not being discussed. It is totally outside the context of the conversation. Where is there any evidence that Srila Prabhupada meant something totally out of the context? In the same sentence he says, "I have deputed the, my disciples." "This" refers to that which he had already deputed them to do.

And, how can we accept the (ill) logic that Prabhupada is, on Oct 18th, deputing those men to become actual initiator gurus? That topic (who will be the actual initiator guru) is not at all discussed in this conversation. The GBC says it is implied by the words "this initiation", but Prabhupada connects "this" to that which he had already deputed his men to do in that list. There is no other proof or evidence that Srila Prabhupada was on that day deputing those men to now act as initator guru. It is all in the confused mental state of the GBC. Outside of their mental concoction, such evidence does not exist. Rather, Srila Prabhupada makes clear reference and connection to "that list", where he had already deputed his men to do "this" initiation, and in that referrenced list the topic of who is the actual initiator guru is mentioned, and that is clearly declared to be Srila Prabhupad.

It is also totally absurd to say that Srila Prabhupada was herein asking Jayapataka to become this man's initiator guru. The Bengali man had requested to become Srila Prabhupada's initiated disciple. To accept that Prabhupada now wanted Jayapataka Swami to become this man's initiator guru would mean that Prabhupada was dictating that the poor fellow must now become Jayapataka's disciple instead. Without even discussing this with the man, Prabhupada would simply dictate who he must now accept as his eternal savior? He asks to be Prabhupada's disciple, and without even speaking to the man, Prabhupada is dictating that he must become disciple of someone else? Such an idea or concept is totally opposed to what Prabhupada has taught in his books. Where is the test between disciple and guru? Where is there relationship? How can the GBC promote this madness that Srila Prabhupada would dictate such a thing? He would then be dictating to the man who his guru will be, and dictating to Jayapataka Swami who his disciple will be. This is madness. Srila Prabhupada would never do such a thing, and never did such a thing. But, that is what the GBC wants us to believe. And, they are concocting meanings outside of the context of the conversation as evidence of their mentally concocted ideas. Srila Prabhupada never did such a thing. He did not, on Oct 18th, depute Jayapataka to become that man's guru, and he did not dictate to this man who his guru was to be. He did not stop acting as the initiator guru.

Thus, we reject the logic given by the GBC and by Rupanuga.

Srila Prabhupada never authorized these men to become regular gurus. Especially not in this Oct 18th conversation.

Aspiring to become the most worthy and humble servant of the Vaishnavas,
Ameyatma das (ACBSP 1973)