Mystery of the Parampara (das)

Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:28:11 -0700 (PDT)
From: Patrick Hedemark <pdhedemark@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: FW: Parampara dasa exposed

Prabhu - when did Rocan admit to "being" in fact Parampara Das? There is nothing in this article that explains this.

I read this article last week when it was published. Of course it means or proves nothing. It is just more of the same nonsense.

However - if in fact Rocan has admitted to being "Parampara Das" this is more than interesting. It proves that Rocan Das is among other things -

1. A LIAR
2. A FRAUD
3. A PERPETRATOR OF INTRIGUE
4. A COWARD.

Below is a series of letters he and I exchanged - after I called him on his little game! As you read them you will see how I sussed him out, and had he published our letters - if your claim is indeed correct - HIS EXPOSURE WOULD BE COMPLETE.

AS IT IS - IF YOUR CLAIM IS CORRECT - HE WILL BE FINISHED FOR ALL INTENTS AND PURPOSES - AS NO ONE BUT AN IMBECILE COULD EVER TAKE ANYTHING HE SAYS OR DOES THE LEAST BIT SERIOUSLY.

Here is that exchange:

Prabhu - I will send you a communication that occurred between this Demon and myself recently. He permanently banned me from publishing on his site. I have exposed him at every turn and he is just absolutely livid that I would have the sand to do such a thing.

I am convinced that when one associates with the Gaudiya Math in any way shape or form - his Krsna Consciousness experiences the equivalent of a wrecking ball! It is really no different than if a wife hears even one word spoken against her husband - and even remotely agrees with it! This "agreement" with a contradictory "man" then sits in her heart like a wicked "demon seed" and in time it sprouts all the rebellion of a New Jersey Stripper! Before she knows what hit her - she finds herself outside the family looking in, asking herself "What in the hell happened?" This is what the Gaudiya Math brings to the table:

"YOUR Srila Prabhupada is not THE SRILA PRABHUPADA. Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Thakur is THE SRILA PRABHUPADA - FOR THE "GREATER" KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT."

THAT IS HOW IT NEEDS to be in order for them to POACH upon the mission of Srila Prabhupada.

When we injest this wicked cocktail - we modify it - to say "Our Srila Prabhupada wanted us ALLLLLLLL TO BE SRILA PRABHUPADA'S" and all it takes is for just one man to assign such value to us - and we are "KNIGHTED".

THIS IS THE EFFECT OF THE GAUDIYA MATH. IT SANCTIONS OUR FOOLISH DESIRE TO FALL INTO THE "LAST SNARE OF MAYA": the desire to be GOD or the next best thing, SERVANT GOD!

I will send you the entire exchange of about 7 letters. I sent this one in response to the letter on Sun site from Vishwambhara das: –

Dear Vishwambhara Prabhu,
Please accept my obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Apparently I did not make myself clear enough in my last comments to one "Parampara Das", and this has left you a little confused. I apologise if this is in fact the case. After rereading my previous comments I can see how this might have happened.

The principal point I was making is simple enough. A devotee - calling themself "Parampara Das" initiated a supposed debate - to take place in this Sun site medium, for the purpose of drawing out as many commentaries as possible on the subject matter of initiation into Krsna Consciousness. This devotee was unwilling, after being requested by me three times, to disclose their "bonafides" where it concerns their own "initiation", i.e. when he or she was formally initiated, by whom, where this "initiation" occurred and where he or she now served and what that specific active service was. Consequently - it could only be concluded that this individual was most probably a woman and/or a member of the Gaudiya Math or a follower of HH Narayana Maharaja. Or they could even be a member of the Sun Staff itself, attempting to "stir the pot" so to speak. I have drawn my own conclusion as to who the individual is - but that is not too terribly important.

My point in my original response to this call for debate and the supposed "promise" to pay $10,000 dollars to the individual who could legitimize and support initiations by ritvik representatives on behalf of Srila Prabhupada by means of shastric evidence - was that such a debate could not be adjudicated by an individual or body that would be acceptable to everyone participating in such a "debate".

Both you and "Parampara Das(i)" took the opportunity to inform me that I had not offered any shastric evidence to support my comments which you both somehow mistook for my effort to contribute to the desired "debate". My comments were anything but. I merely pointed out that such a debate was essentially meaningless. It is so - for two important reasons.

First - initiation into Krsna Consciousness is discussed throughout each of Srila Prabhupada's books simply in terms of philosophically taking shelter of and serving the bonafide representative of Lord Krsna - who purely represents Him both in precept and example. One cannot find the subject matter of appointed officials acting upon the directions of such a pure devotee anywhere in a single page of Srila Prabhupada's books. And it is Srila Prabhuapda's books alone that can serve us any such "debate" that begs drawing upon shastric evidence. My point on this was clearly expressed. You could not find an argument for or against meeting the demands of this simple detail - no matter how hard you tried.

Second - since we all read the same books by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada and HE is not personally here to act as the final "adjudicator" in any such debate, his books alone serve in this capacity - and both sides of this issue will simpy refer to them in discussing the details pertaining to formalizing one's committment to Guru and Krsna. Thus such a debate cannnot be realistically concluded.

I pointed this out as clearly as possible. This "Parampara Das(i)" has pretended to be willing to hand over $10,000 US to anyone who can "prove" the possibility of validating with rock-solid shastric evidence anyone's effectively acting upon the instructions pertaining to taking full and unreserved shelter of the bonafide Acharya Srila Prabhupada by means of officiating or ritvik representatives of the acharya. The futility of such a debate - wherein the means to conclusively adjudicate its results are effectively nullfied by the absence of any real means to do so - should be obvious to anyone. Each side will quote Srila Prabhupada's books and letters - till they are blue in the face - as it has already been done for 30 years - and the fictitious $10,000 will remain in cyberspace where it lies today.

You also accused me of directing ad hominem attacks upon Mr. or Mrs. Parampara Das(i) by introducing the short segment of the KRSNA book that recounts the hilarious delusions of the silly rascal King Paundraka. Again you sorely missed the point. If you recall - I introduced this story by saying - "This public challenge of yours reminds me of the wonderful story of Paundraka and his challenge to Lord Krsna, recounted here of course by our wonderful Srila Prabhupada."

I was drawing a comparison between these two challenges and how I view both as being unresolvable by means of debate alone. Lord Krsna stated to Paundraka, "Now, Paundraka, I shall force you to give up this false representation. You wanted Me to surrender unto you. Now this is your opportunity. We shall now fight, and if I am defeated and you become victorious, I shall certainly surrender unto you." I was not alluding to "Parampara Das(i) being a demon like Paundraka. I was directly saying that this issue or difference of opinion in this matter of formal initiation etc can only really be settled by "fighting" - which in our case simply means successfuly introducing the simple science of Krsna Conscioiusness; the chanting of the Holy Names of Lord Krsna, the acceptance of His prasadam and the sharing of this simple process as extensively as possible to other "innocents" like ourselves. That is all.

In this respect - I stated, "The only legitmate manner in which to "settle" this - in the manner in which HDG Srila Prabhupada would expect and ratify - is found in the words of Lord Krsna. One's authority in this regard is demonstrated not by endless debating, regardless of how much prize money you purport to offer to the so called "winner" of this debate. Proof of one's position in this respect is found in the full measure of Lord Chaitanya's being satisfied with one's efforts in spreading His Mercy to as many souls as is possible. Srila Prabhupada verified his being the direct confluence of Guru/Sadhu/Shastra, by the immeasurable results he achieved in such a short time, followed by a lifetime of preparation in pure devotional service." Likewise the winner of this "debate" is decided by everyone acting upon their respective conclusions and allowing our success in being and sharing Krsna consciousness speak for itself.

I stand by my original comments and maintain that this so called "debate" is a cheap ploy, the initiation of which is suspect and wasteful of a serious preacher's time. Likewise I suggested to "Parampara Das(i)" that if in fact he or she did in fact possess $10,000 dollars to throw away on such a debate - that they would be prudently serving the interests of Srila Prabhupada and the world - by spending this $10,000 on 40,000 copies of the Perfection of Yoga (or any other book of their choosing) and get busy "proving" their position in a real manner as opposed to wasting their's and the world's time with an unresolvable yet distracting debate.

Praghosa Das, NYC pdhedemark@yahoo.com

This was the first response I received from them:

Dear Praghosa dasa,
Please accept our obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Thank you for your article submission. Unfortunately, we are not willing to publish it. As you so often do when challenged, instead of presenting a solid defense you simply slide down into personal attack. The comments you've made regarding Parampara dasa are ludicrous. This person is a 'he', not a 'she', and he is known to us. He has no relationship at all to the Sun editors, and we take offense at your suggestion that he is us, simply scamming behind our good name. Praghosa, with this comment you have truly worn your welcome out here. Don't send us any more articles. Instead, please submit to Dandavats. I'm sure they'll be happy to give column space to your fanatical Rtvik commentaries.

Thank you very much.

Your servants,
Sun Editors

To which I responded with the following letter:

Well Mother Janava,

You have to do what you see as best.

I did not say Parampara das was a woman. I said this individual "could very well be" a woman. This was listed as one of a number of reasons for why this individual wished to remain anonymous. Who is his selected "guru" is indeed relevant to his interest in this so-called debate. Your saying "He is a man" does nothing to alter the effect of hiding his connection which asI have concluded IS MOST LIKELY THE GAUDIYA MATH OR NARAYANA MAHARAJA.

However - even if he was "initiated' by an ISKCON GURU - still he is not independent of him and this means that he cannot but argue according to his allegiance to this said "guru".

As disciples - we are not FREE or INDEPENDENT of our Spiritual Master. We are all - each of us - BIASED by our connection to him.

Debating with a member of the Gaudiya Math is non-different from debating with a BIBLE-TOTING CHRISTIAN. The "authority" for each party is generally accepted absolutely - and without a mutually agreed upon adjudicator, the "debate" is unresolvable and thus without conclusive end.

Mataji - you obviously speak for Rocan prabhu in your letter to me - though the illogical manner with which you address this subject is decidedly feminine. I do not hold it against you. After all - women are women andmust do what women do.

However - my position on guru is non-different from the position of our Acharya. Guru is Absolute and also ONE! That is all. He is Supreme Personality of Servitor Godhead, and it is in our eternal interest to align ourselves with his directions.

Now if you consider such a postion as "fanatical" - I might suggest you take shelter of your good husband and sit together and carefully read every word given us by Srila Prabhupada, and in time you will understand the exhalted position of guru and the advantage provided us by taking absolute shelter of Him.

My stating that one of the possibilities for the absence of any honest disclosure from Mr Parampara das was that he could very well have been an invention by you or Rocan prabhu - for the purpose of "stirring up the pot" - was merely showing you what conclusions your audience may come to if you are not careful in such matters. Assisting him in hiding his "allegiance" to the Gaudiya Math is what really diminishes your "good name", as you called it. Not my drawing an erroneous yet perfectly logical conclusion as to the various possibilities for this hiding.

I am helping you and you don't realize it. All the while calling me a fanatic - for NOT expressing any opinion on the matter - WHILE AT THE SAME TIME - INVITING THE BALANCE OF THE PUBLIC TO DO SO!

Absurd in the extreme.

It is this absurdity alone - that leads me to conclude that it was you, Mother, and not Rocan Prabhu writing to me. Your comments smack of a woman's madness.

Respectfully,
Praghosa Das

I then received the following reply from Rocan a few days later:

Dear Praghosa dasa,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Your assumption that our recent email to you was framed by Jahnava devi was wrong. Anything signed by "Sun Editors" indicates one of two things:

1) that it was of so little importance, or was such a simple admin item, that anyone serving on the editorial staff at the moment the email was being processed was authorized to send it anonymously on behalf of the entire editorial team, or

2) that it was the opposite -- an item of significance, thus issued on behalf of the entire editorial staff as a matter of policy.

In your case, it was the latter.

Your references to mother Jahnava and 'feminine' ways of thinking are so typical of your overall mood, pompousness and ignorance. These are the very qualities that caused us to dis-invite you from being a Sun contributor. And believe me, the topic of banning you has come up many times before. Interestingly enough, it was often Jahnava who advocated for letting you carry on, just on the principle of equal access. But you've exhausted even that support.

You always speak so absolutely, when you're actually one of the flakiest technical writers we've regularly published. You make half-points, ignore rebuttals, mis-read statements made by others, and generally -- fanatically -- spew out whatever's on your mind. Unfortunately, you often don't put your mind to proper work in advance of sitting down at the keyboard. To make it worse, you're arrogant and offensive to the very people that have been trying to serve you by publishing your writings.

That's why you're no longer welcome to publish here.

I see that Puranjana is on one of his mindless tears this morning, suggesting that Balavidya dasa and Parampara dasa are actually me. I don't know if he got this idea from you, or you from him, but the two of you are certainly in good company. If Dandavats doesn't serve you to your satisfaction, I suggest you begin contributing to Puranjana's newsletter. You'll be in excellent company there.

On behalf of myself, Jahnava devi, and the entire Editorial Staff of the Sampradaya Sun,

your servant,
Rocana dasa

I followed this letter with this response:

Hello Rocan prabhu,
All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Prabhu - what is obvious is at the end of the day - what I stated about Parampara das is correct, and you are just protesting to cover for your own compromised position. He is indeed antagonistic towards your own Spiritual Master's authority - and you gleefully hide this in order to foment this useless unresolvable debate on your site. This is demonic and offensive behaviour on your part. Unbecoming a man who should know better. Shame on you.

As a disciple of Srila Prabhupada - you fail to understand that your willingness to facilitate an obvious sympathizer with the Gaudiya Math is patently offensive. Were you a temple president - would you facilitate such a debate betwixt these two entities? Highly unlikely.

Your writing to me - claiming that "Parampara das is known to us and is not a woman" does not prove anything of importance at all. The fact that he is "known" toYOU, as you say, was not and is not my point. My point was that he and thus his allegiance as an "Initiated" disciple is unknown to me. It was for this reason that I asked him to divulge this information. Who he is and to whom he swears his "oath of allegiance" is in fact of the utmost importance in any such discussion.

That you might consider this as irrelevant shows you to be either just plain dumb or devious - or perhaps a bit of both.

Read the Oath of Allegiancegiven us by His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada, I have shared with you and your readers. There is no wiggle room there, Prabhu. You either accept HDG as the Supreme Authority for the Krsna Consciousness movement - under the banner of ISKCON - or you do not. Now - if Parampara das is a member of the Gaudiya Math in any way shape or form - or is in fact initiated by a particular ISKCON GURU - he is simply not at liberty to hold a "differing" perspective of Srila Prabhupada - other than as being "relative to the shastra". This automatically prevents any legitimacy to any such debate on this subject.

Your claim that this subject matter of the hiding of his "provenance" and his identity and his connection to your site is now also being discussed by Puranjana das only serves to underscore my simple point to your wife yesterday. I have no connection with Puranjana of any kind. I have never actually met the man - and only spoke with him once in my life by phone - in 1992! But - as I pointed out yesterday - your hiding his [Parampara das's] connection to the Gaudiya Math - or his connection to some ISKCON guru - combined with his obvious slant - has left you open to just this speculation by others.

Now your complaining to me - or banning me from your forum - just for pointing out the obvious - demonstrates your own sympathy for the conclusions of the Gaudiya Math and Srila Prabhupada's most exhalted and exclusive position. Directing your ire towards me - for pointing out the obvious - only makes you appear petty and weak.

It was for this reason that I noted the "feminine" feature of the claims in the letter, all illogical and emotional. My views on guru are anything but fanatic. They are only exactly what is expressed by Srila Prabhupada - both in his books and adjoining letters. So - your letter to me was not by Janava - then as the monitor of the site, you are responsible for them. They are in fact ignorant and arrogant. However - you are loathe to take responsibility for them - preferring to state that they come from someone "anonymous" who is empowered by you as the monitor. Silly and pathetic in the extreme.

You have little mettle my friend. A far cry from the Canadians I knew and loved in the past.

You resent my speaking or writing "Absolutely" and claim that none of my comments published in your site have been properly substantiated with the words of our Guru? Perhaps you have forgotten that Krsna consciousness is the Absolute Truth.

What you resent is the fact that I most often direct my words directly at you and your claims on "preaching". My crime is in opposing you at most turns since your positions are so often without substance or merit. It is you who lives in the realm of specious claims - expressed absolutely and matter of factly, Prabhu.

It has been interesting.

I invite you to my home in Mayapur anytime in the future - and we can share some prasadam and perhaps discuss - face to face - if you have the sand for that.

All Glories to His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada.

Praghosa

I then received this letter from Rocan:

Dear Praghosa dasa,
Please accept my humble obeisances. All Glories to Srila Prabhupada.

In response to your latest, you wrote:

Prabhu - what is obvious is at the end of the day - what I stated about Parampara das is correct and you are just protesting to cover for your own compromised position. He is indeed antagonistic towards your own Spiritual Master's authority - and you gleefully hide this - in order to foment this useless unresolvable debate on your site. This is demonic and offensive behaviour on your part. Unbecoming a man who should know better. Shame on you.

At least some of what you stated about Parampara das is patently incorrect. As for the rest, that's a matter of debate. I don't know what you see as my "compromised position", perhaps you'd like to explain that cryptic comment. I disagree that he, or I, or any of the recent anti-Rtvik proponents on the Sun, are antagonistic towards Srila Prabhupada's authority. This is simply your non-absolute opinion, and many of us disagree with it.

You don't seem to comprehend that your opinions are non-absolute, any more you're [sic] your inability to understand that for every one who agrees with you, there are many more who don't. You seem to believe that only those who agree with you are "intelligent", or "realized" or "right", without question. This is a fool's position. Further, your charges that I am "demonic and offensive" are typical of you. You always resort to calling me this when you don't get your way. It's just childishness.

You wrote:

As a disciple of Srila Prabhupada - you fail to understand that your willingness to facilitate an obvious sympathizer with the Gaudiya Math is patently offensive. Were you a temple president - would you facilitate such a debate betwixt these two entities? Highly unlikely.

You're apparently suggesting that Parampara dasa is a Gaudiya Matha supporter. What do you base that on? I have seen no indication of that, nor do I believe it to be true from my personal knowledge of this individual. So what exactly are you talking about?

You wrote:

Your writing to me - claiming that "Parampara das is known to us and is not a woman" does not prove anything of importance at all. The fact that he is "known" to YOU, as you say - was not and is not my point. My point was that he and thus his allegiance as an "Initiated" disciple is unknown to me. It was for this reason that I asked him to divulge this information. Who he is and to whom he swears his "oath of allegiance" is in fact of the utmost importance in any such discussion.

First, there little logic in the above statement. Second, for a man who hid the fact that he was a cent percent Rtvik for as long as you did in your contributions to the Sun, I find it astounding that you would be so demanding that another writer disclosure his identity to you now. He is under no compunction to do so. He has every right to post anonymously, and I have every right to facilitate him in that regard.

Further, your manic attachment for the "Oath of Allegience" is your own -- it does not dictate the behaviour of others.

You wrote:

So - - your letter to me was not by Janava - then as the monitor of the site - you are responsible for them. They are in fact ignorant and arrogant. However - you are loathe to take responsibility for them - preferring to state that they come from someone "anonymous" who is empowered by you as the monitor. Silly and pathetic in the extreme.

Praghosa, please copy/paste this exchange to your desktop. Next time you want a forum to broadcast your personal rantings and you can't submit them to the Sun because we will no longer serve you, just open up that desktop scrap and be reminded of why that is.

You wrote:

You resent my speaking or writing "Absolutely" and claim that none of my comments published in your site have been properly substantiated with the words of our Guru? Perhaps you have forgotten that KC is the Absolute Truth.

Yes, Krsna consciousness is the Absolute Truth, but your interpretation of it is not. Why you can't discern the difference is beyond me.

your servant,
Rocana dasa

I offered him this final "thorough" effort. Naturally - he had NOTHING TO SAY.

Hello Rocan Prabhu,
Please accept my obeisances. all Glories To Srila Prabhupada.

Below are my answers and/or responses to your questions and comments. Thanks for writing.

Praghosa Das

At least some of what you stated about Parampara das is patently incorrect. As for the rest, that's a matter of debate. I don't know what you see as my "compromised position", perhaps you'd like to explain that cryptic comment. I disagree that he, or I, or any of the recent anti-Rtvik proponents on the Sun, are antagonistic towards Srila Prabhupada's authority. This is simply your non-absolute opinion, and many of us disagree with it.

This is not a cryptic statement. I directly accuse you of deliberately participating in this political ploy and hiding the identity of this devotee - and MOST IMPORTANTLY - HIS ALLEGIANCE TO HIS INITIATING GURU - WHOEVER THIS IN FACT IS.

How you can turn this also into a debate defies all reason, Prabhu. I can give my entire history and he ought to be able and compelled to do the same if he intends to debate anyone - on anything.

Praghosa Das - AKA - LEGAL NAME Patrick Hedemark
Born Detroit Mich 1952
Became an aspiring devoteeon May 1st 1973 in Detroit - under Govardhana Das
Was First initiated - by HDG Srila Prabhupada in late September 1973 - by HH Sudama Goswami - likewise an initiated disciple of HDG Srila Prabhupada - before Their Lordships Sri Sri Radha Madhava
Received my Second (Brahman Initiation) in late May of 1974 - in the Honolulu Temple before Their Lordships Sri Pancha Tattwa
I served as a book distributor and Temple President under Tripuari Swami, Tamal Krsna Goswami, Adi Kesava Swami, Bhagavan Das Goswami within OFFICIAL ISKCON from May of 1973 - till November of 1985.
I wed in Portugal in 1981
I returned from Europe in 1985 and have since that time worked conjointly with my wife to raise 4 sons and 2 daughters in Krsna consciousness to the best of our abilities. As a family we have resided in the ISKCON COMMUNITIES in Detroit, Los Angeles, New Talavan and now Sri Dhama Mayapur.

Though I was - like 99% of the ISKCON DEVOTEES - unaware of the OATH OF ALLEGIANCE that Srila Prabhupada ORDERED to be sent out and maintained on June 2nd - I have always offered Srila Prabhupada the allegiance and faith he ensconced within this oath and upon its discovery only 6 months ago -promptly accepted it fullly and now recite it daily as a part of my morning sadhana.

NOW - this kind of clear picture could easily be demanded and extracted from anyone - this Parampara Das especially - in order to fully understand exactly where his actualy loyalties lie. That you consider this to be insignificant to the degree that you do - all the while promoting this "debate" on your site -is short sighted at the very least.

A disciple is not "independent" of his guru.Theguru is "Swami" or husband and just as the wife (real wife) holds no separate opinion from her husband - in exchange for his taking complete charge of her and providing her all protection - the disciple (real disciple) will only repeat what he has accepted as coming from God Himself VIA his Spiritual master.

So I wrote to this Parampara das and directly asked him to provide me a fraction of what I provided you above. He flatly refused to do so. I asked again. Again He flatly refused to do so.

I composed my letter to Vishwambara Das (an old friend and Godbrother from France) and informed him as I did. You objected to this.

I stated all the simple conceivable reasons for what could in fact really be going on and WHY this individual refused to divulge such simple information. Each "possibility" was in fact a distinct possibility - including your playing the role in this obfuscation that I had expressed.

You needn't have responded so stridently. My suggested reasons were in fact all possible, and all that was needed was for you to simply say "Praghosa, this is most definitely not the case. Parampara Das is a man not a woman, is a disciple of XXX and he was initiated in XXX country in XXX year and he serves in XXX capacity." Instead all you did was express your "shock" and indignation that anyone could even consider such incompetent management on your part. "Praghosa, he is known to us". Big deal, Prabhu, that was never my ultimate point.

Now once his "allegiance" to his "husband" was divulged - we would all know exactly how "impartial" in their acceptance of the evidence in this so called debate, he or his backers could be. THIS is the only reason I made any issue of this whatsoever.

Now you say "At least some of what you stated about Parampara das is patently incorrect. As for the rest, that's a matter of debate." Uh Prabhu, do you really wish to stand by such a statement? As I said in the above - you could have easily demanded of him a full and accurate disclosure of his history and subsequent absolute allegiance -down to the same detail as I provided you - in order to know EXACTLY who he is. Who he is - is a factual reality, Prabhu. It is not subject to debate! And the reason for WHY this is both relevant and imporant should be clear to anyone.

I don't know what you see as my "compromised position", perhaps you'd like to explain that cryptic comment.

You are directly assisting him in withholdng information to what is pertinent to this so-called "debate". This shows you to be highly compromised in this matter. That you would do so shows your bias in the debate also - which has only manifest within ISKCON as a direct consequence of the envious impulses of the leadership of the Gaudiya Math. Consequently - you have become implicated in rejecting the Sovereignty and Authority of His Divine Grace Srila Prabhupada - by giving the Gaudiya Math a "voice" on your site - through the agency of NM followers and those who use "shastra" to deny the validity of Srila Prabhupada's simple arrangements in the matter of initiation.

You think this is acceptable, even affectionately overseen by HDG Srila Prabhupada. I assure you it is not. It is patently offensive to provide a pulpit to those who would use it - to directly reject THE SUPREME AUTHORITY FOR THE KRSNA CONSCIOUSNESS MOVEMENT on this planet. And - what is utterly ironic is - you permit this - all the while proclaming that it is you and your site that most vociferously proclaims the glorious position of Srila Prabhupada as the Sampradaya Acharya. This is the height of Irony.

The "Debate" itself is offensive. As I said in my letter to Vishwambhara Das - this matter can never be settled with talk and debate. Guru is ONE and He is a manifestation of God Himself. You cannot establish who isor is NOT guru - with debates any more than you can with some VOTING PROCEDURE. GURU IS SELF EFFULGENT. AND IT IS GURU WHO "SETTLES" WHO IS GURU. HE JUST GLORIFIES KRSNA SO PURELY THAT ALL JIVAS ARE ENTICED TO HEAR AND TAKE HIS INSTRUCTION.

In KRSNA book Srila Prabhupada writes in the very beginning:

In other words, Krsna is the Godhead because He is all-attractive. Outside the principle of all-attraction, there is no meaning to the word Godhead.

Guru is one of the Five Features of Lord Krsna's Appearance as Lord Chaitanya. He is an aspect, then, OF THIS GODHEAD! As Krsna is all attractive - and it is THIS FEATURE that defines HIM as GOD - His ability to attract all living entities to Himself - so similarly the Guru is HE WHO CAN EXCLUSIVELY REVEAL LORD KRSNA TO US AND THUS PLACE US IN CONTACT DIRECTLY WITH THIS ALL ATTRACTIVE LORD KRSNA.

This "Manifiestation of God Himself" - GURU - is not elected or appointed or establshed with debates. He descends from Goloka - and we are meant to unambiguously submit or surrender to Him.

This "debate" you now sponsor - has at its core - the desire by the camp of the Gaudiya Math and its adherents within what is now called ISKCON to artificially employ the "shastra" to deny the simple arrangements of Srila Prabhupada as being "bonafide". Challenging the "bonafides" of anything instructed by Srila Prahbupada IS THE ABSOLUTE ESSENCE OF OFFENSE AND UNCHASTITY. "There is a clear line of demarcation between the saviour and the saved." [Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakur] When the "saved" imagine that now they can assess and critique the "Methods" employed by their saviour - in his efforts to save others - they have quite simply lost their minds!

This appears to me to be the very core of your compromised position. The saying goes "If you lie down with dogs - you are going to catch fleas!" and you have provided the pulpit to so many different "flea bags" that you are now indeed compromised.

You imagine that "responsible" journalism entails giving a voice to every Tom Dick and Harry that seeks to puke upon the public! Would you print the writings of Deepak Chopra? Rajneesh? Eric Tolle? Tony Robbins? Shankaracharya? Unlikely. Your defect is though - that you actually do not see the detrimental effect to yourself and others - by now actually arguing against PREACHING ABSOLUTELY anything.

Your problem Praghosa is you think your opinions are absolute! And they are not!"

What you fail to note - is I never express a personal opinion. I merely RE - PRESENT the words of Srila Prabhupada and allow him to speak for himself. AS SRILA PRABHUPADA'S DISCIPLES - WE ARE BARRED FROM HAVING OUR OWN OPINION, PRABHU. WE MERELY REPEAT WHAT HE HAS SAID. THAT IS ALL.

YOU have a problem with that - you do not understand the simple science of Krsna conscioiusness. Show me where I have ever expressed an "unsubstantiated', personal opinion on any matter of significance; any aspect of the science of Krsna consciousness? You cannot.

You don't seem to comprehend that your opinions are non-absolute, any more youre your inability to understand that for every one who agrees with you, there are many more who don't.

Anyone who disagrees with Srila Prabhupada's direct teachings or DIRECTIVES is not worth a bucket of spit, Prabhu. Where you can show that my position veers even an inch from Srila Prabhupada - I will accept your disagreement as fully valid. Otherwise - such statements are wasted and irrelevant.

You seem to believe that only those who agree with you are "intelligent", or "realized" or "right", without question. This is a fool's position.

When my so-called postion can be shown to be merely the stated words of HDG Srila Prabhupada - then clearly the "fool" is he who would claim the opposite.

Further, your charges that I am "demonic and offensive" are typical of you. You always resort to calling me this when you don't get your way. It's just childishness.

Again - I only deal in facts, Prabhu. Here is my "factual statement" and is the standard way in which I ALWAYS address such matters. I told you:

He is indeed antagonistic towards your own Spiritual Master's authority - and you gleefully hide this - in order to foment this useless unresolvable debate on your site. This is demonic and offensive behaviour on your part.

As a parent who has or is raising 6 children - I have been faced with hundreds of times when I was forced to admonish my child for their "behaviour". Though I might say "this is Bad behaviour" - I never say "YOU are BAD!" this is a parental NO NO! Likewise here - I point out the demonic nature of your actions. I do not accuse you of being a demon. Only of being a temporarily misguided aspiring devotee. It is your actions to which I draw your attention. If you were honest - you would thank me rather than express such childlike resentment. Hiding this man's allegiance - all the while promoting this public condemnation of Srila Prabhupada's Mercy and the authority with which he employs it - is in fact offensive and demonic behaviour. Give it up and we have no quarrel.

You wrote: "As a disciple of Srila Prabhupada - you fail to understand that your willingness to facilitate an obvious sympathizer with the Gaudiya Math - is patently offensive. Were you a temple president - would you facilitate such a debate betwixt these two entities? Highly unlikely." You're apparently suggesting that Parampara dasa is a Gaudiya Matha supporter. What do you base that on? I have seen no indication of that, nor do I believe it to be true from my personal knowledge of this individual. So what exactly are you talking about?

Well, Prabhu - as I said above - merely ask him to provide his detailed history and there will be no doubt one way or the other.

Even if he is not Gaudiya Math - still - present ISKCON ITSELF has ensconced the Gaudiya Math Acharyas and their ideas as THE principle upon which their entire Elected Guru system was given its initial momentum. Either way - it is all Gaudiya Math in principle. Elected Perfect Men - who are granted a license to POACH UPON THE ASSETS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA. That is Gaudiya Math: fighting over the rooms or zones in the Acharya's Ashrama.

You wrote: "Your writing to me - claiming that "Parampara das is known to us and is not a woman" does not prove anything of importance at all. The fact that he is "known" to YOU as you say - was not and is not my point. My point was that he and thus his allegiance as an "Initiated" disciple is unknown to me. It was for this reason that I asked him to divulge this information. Who he is and to whom he swears his "oath of allegiance" is in fact of the utmost importance in any such discussion." First, there little logic in the above statement.

Then just read it until you get it, Prabhu. I have already dealt with this issue sufficiently.

Second, for a man who hid the fact that he was a cent percent Rtvik for as long as you did in your contributions to the Sun, I find it astounding that you would be so demanding that another writer disclosure his identity to you now. He is under no compunction to do so. He has every right to post anonymously, and I have every right to facilitate him in that regard. Further, your manic attachment for the "Oath of Allegience" is your own -- it does not dictate the behaviour of others.

I published my essay on Guru long long before I published "A Simple Matter" - nearly a year. I never "Hid" my position. And again - "MY POSITION" as you call it is merely the stated words of Srila Prabhupada, both philosophcially and practically. Srila Prabhpada's essay "The Universal Teacher" and Srila Bhaktisiddhanta's essay "Initiation into Spirtual Life" are soooooo perfectly crystal clear - and clarify all of Srila Prabhpada's DIRECTIVES that little more need be said on the matter - except to show a new man ALL THE SIMPLE teachings and DIRECTIVES OF HIS DIVINE GRACE and he will know precisely how to meet his needs where it pertains to finding and submitting to Guru and Krsna.

You wrote: "So - your letter to me was not by Janava - then as the monitor of the site - you are responsible for them. They are in fact ignorant and arrogant. However - you are loathe to take responsibility for them - preferring to state that they come from someone "anonymous" who is empowered by you as the monitor. Silly and pathetic in the extreme." Praghosa, please copy/paste this exchange to your desktop. Next time you want a forum to broadcast your personal rantings and you can't submit them to the Sun because we will no longer serve you, just open up that desktop scrap and be reminded of why that is.

Well - it is said "happy are the Kshatriyas to whom such fighting opportunities come - unsought." If you had your head on straight - and were sooooo philosophically well situated - - you would NEVER seek to remove me from your forum for the simple reason that each time I wrote anything - you could "expose" the errors of my preaching and only better serve the audience you wish to serve and enlighten. After all - it is said that a fool remains hidden - until he opens his mouth! With every submission I provide you - you could utterly unmask my erroneous ways - RIGHT THERE IN PUBLIC - for the benefit of all the deserving souls. But preventing my comments from finding their way to the public - is non-different from all other mediums of propaganda in existence today. You should see that such a man as myself - with, according to you, my erroneous and EASILY DEFEATED positions - should provide you the perfect means to establish your doctrines. Your attempt to silence me, though, shows you doubt your own position - and fear that my writings expose the true nature of your site and its basic premise: which is as I have repreatedly said - confused and inconclusive and thus of no real help to anyone in the matter of finding and submitting unambiguously to Guru and Krsna.

I am not surprised that you have taken this cowardly step. It is exactly as Praghosa Das on Dandavats has done as well. When I write anything he feels will not sully the status quo and HIS OWN POSITION - he is fine. When I publish truths that are viewed as "threatening" to their bottom line - they just ignore. You are clearly influenced by the same fears. Shame since a real preacher welcomes - such preaching opportunities - that come unsought.

You wrote: "You resent my speaking or writing "Absolutely" and claim that none of my comments published in your site have been properly substantiated with the words of our Guru? Perhaps you have forgotten that KC is the Absolute Truth." Yes, Krsna consciousness is the Absolute Truth, but your interpretation of it is not. Why you can't discern the difference is beyond me.

Prabhu - neither you nor I -are permitted to pass off our INTERPRETATIONS OF SRILA PRABHUPADA'S TEACHINGS OR DIRECTIVES as our own. Such pretentious "preaching" is devious and cannot effectively influence anyone. What has ALWAYS BEEN CONSPICOUSBY ITS ABSENCE - in anything you wrote in dispute with me over anything - is a direct QUOTE or STATEMENT by HDG Srila Prabhupada - that reveals what you call as "MY POSITION" to be in error. THIS you do not do. This you have never done.

The Absolute Truth is as Factual as PREGNANCY OR DEATH. We cannot bealmost pregnant. We are either pregnant or not pregnant. Likewise - we are either dead - or alive. There is nothing in between. We are either stating the FACTUAL ABSOLUTE TRUTH - AS GIVEN BY SRILA PRABHUPADA - OR WE ARE NOT.

IN EVERY MATTER - THE TRUTH - THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH - IS ACTUALLY WRITTEN DOWN - IT IS ACTUALLY RECORDED - FOR ALL OF HISTORY - BY HIS DIVINE GRACE SRILA PRABHUPADA. WE ARE OBLIGED TO REPEAT IT - WITHOUT CHANGE - ABSOLUTELY.

I hope I have addressed your questions and points adequately.

Thank you for your time,
Praghosa Das

----- Original Message -----
From: Nityananda Rama Dasa
Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2007 6:18 AM
Subject: Have you all seen this article???

Hare Krsna All
PAMHO/ All Glories to Srila Prabhupada

Check out this article which is on Sampradayasun.com. lol... not sure what to make of it...

All Glories to Sri Sri Guru and Gauranga!!!! Hari Bol

Your Humble Servant
Nityananda Rama dasa

$10,000 Reward for Sadhu and Sastra Proof of Rtvikism
BY: PARAMPARA DASA

Oct 1, USA (SUN) - All spiritual practices must pass the test of guru, sadhu and sastra. If the Rtvik persons can prove their proposal for the continuance of the ISKCON branch of the Brahma-Sampradaya according to these three authorities, then we pledge a donation of $10,000. This offer is open until midnight Janmastami 2008.

Kindly note:

(1) The Category of Guru: The Rtvik persons have provided statements in the category of guru. Srila Prabhupada is that guru. The present Vaisnava society are well aware of their interpretation of the July 9th 1977 letter of Tamal Krsna Goswami, which Srila Prabhupada signed. Their particular interpretation of that letter is highly questionable; however they have made their case for post-samadhi Rtvik initiation within ISKCON for 10,000 years. They are not required to provide any more quotes from the commentaries, lectures, letters and conversations of Srila Prabhupada. But, to qualify for the $10,000 the Rtvik proponents must satisfactorily prove the bona fides of their interpretation by reference to the precedent sadhus and Vedic sastra.

(2) The Category of Sadhu: The Six Goswamis and the thirty-one great acaryas previous to Srila Prabhupada given in the introductory section of Srila Prabhupada's Bhagavad-gita. To qualify, the Rtvik persons must give satisfactory proof that just one of these thirty-seven acaryas instituted a post-disappearance day diksa-guru system, similar to the one they say Srila Prabhupada laid out in the July 9th letter.

(3) The Category of Sastra: The Four Vedas, notably the 108 principal Upanisads, the Fifth Veda, i.e., the Mahabharata, the Six Satvika Puranas, particularly the Srimad Bhagavatam, the Caitanya-Bhagavata, and the Caitanya-caritamrta. To qualify, the Rtvik persons must give satisfactory proof from any of the afore-mentioned scriptures. That is to say the Rtvik persons must give the original text with translation of the section of the above scriptures that describes the posthumous diksa-guru system that they say Srila Prabhupada laid out in the July 9th letter.

No more opinions or conjecture based on "I think this - I think that" are required; this will cause the submission to be rejected. No more re-interpretations of Srila Prabhupada's statements are required; this will also cause the submission to be rejected. But to qualify for the $10,000, validating proof is required from both the sastra and sadhus in our parampara as outlined above. Thus, we emphasize that only confirming proofs from the bona fide authority are acceptable. The proofs must clearly corroborate the concept of the post-samadhi/disappearance day diksa-guru system for 10,000 years as proposed by the Rtvik persons on the basis of the July 9th letter. The papers outlining the proofs may be submitted to paramparadasa@gmail.com prior to Janmastami 2008. All persons are welcome to submit.

Siddhanta must be established on the basis of a harmonious corroboration between the three ultimate authorities of guru, sadhu and sastra. If the Rtvik persons do not provide satisfactory proof from sadhu and sastra within the above time frame, then the conclusion will be that their post-samadhi-diksa-guru-Rtvikism has no foundation in siddhanta of the Brahma-sampradaya.

All glories to Sri Sri Guru Gauranga,
Your servant, Parampara dasa