A man is buying everything with counterfeit money, and you're bickering over change. It's all counterfeit. It has no real substance.

Take It or Leave It—No Compromise, No Argument

HANSADUTTA: The thing is that my experience is since a long, long time, whenever I run across someone who is a fanatic—or whom I consider a fanatic, anyway—first of all, they are not receptive. Their whole mind set is to block everything which does not support or agree with whatever their conviction is or whatever their belief is. It's not really a conviction; it's a belief that they have embraced without logic, reason and argument and philosophy or even authoritative shastras or disciplic succession. In other words, they just embrace something out of desperation, because it's a living being's nature to take shelter in something, something supreme. But because there is no disciplic succession, no logic, no reason, no argument, no philosophy... and the book itself is about... I mean, who set down the words? Therefore, it's just a waste of time to try to deal with these people. The best thing is to encourage them. You say, "You follow Jesus? Then follow. That's fine." Because you'll aggravate them, and you'll aggravate yourself and wind up wasting time, and people will see us as antagonists, as competitors.

And I also don't really agree with the Interfaith idea where you kind of placate or patronize them, thinking thereby you are going to win them over. Just like policemen going to a den of thieves and trying to... it doesn't make any sense thinking you are going to convert them. They are fixed in a certain mind set which has very little substance, and out of desperation they cling to that. The more reason and arguments you present, the more they become desperate. And you cannot deal with a person who is in desperation.

Our position is: "Here are the Vedic literatures. They have their own intrinsic value. In other words, their authority and validity, their antiquity speak for themselves, and if you are interested, we can explain." But as soon as someone wants to argue, it's just like... we're not here to argue. It's like going to the doctor and then you start arguing with him. Or going to the university and arguing with the professor. The professor says, "If you want to learn, you do the work. Otherwise, go home." We should not enter into argument. It's a different thing when someone is talking with you, and he wants to know, but at certain points he gets stuck and asks, "Hey, well, what about this?" and he puts his doubts forward. That's a different thing. But people who have lock, stock and barrel embraced so-called Christianity and see everyone else as an infidel or whatever... their need is to protect themselves. Otherwise, as soon as they admit one... as soon as they admit you into one point... like meat eating, for example, it says "Thou shalt not kill." They say that refers to killing people, not animals. As soon as they allow themselves to entertain one point that you may be right, they'll collapse, and they cannot collapse, because this is all they have, and you're too far out for them so that they cannot see themselves like this—free-wheeling souls, not being the body and embracing Krishna, who appears to them... from what they have heard from their teachers, He is the devil himself.

SITHU: It's just like that quote you were saying from Bhagavad-gita, "Let not the wise disturb the ignorant."

HANSADUTTA: Yes, don't try to disturb them. It's not a good policy. If someone wants to hear, that's different. Just like you were at that office with a Buddhist man, and he had a gold-plated altar, but he wanted to know about Krishna. He wanted to know. He was curious and interested. Such a person you can... and even then you have to be very cautious how you present. Although we take these things for granted... I mean, we are literally liberated, free-wheeling spirits. We don't think of ourselves that way, but in comparison to the people you are dealing with, we are like men from the moon. We have awesome convictions—we are not this body, we will be born again, wherever and whatever your mind is thinking at the time of death, you go there, karma and Krishna, Krishna lila and on and on... chanting Hare Krishna and eating prasadam, the Gopis, Lord Chaitanya. We have such a vast panorama of transcendental lore and philosophy, it just staggers them. They cannot fathom. Just telling someone that he's not the body is like... that is a big thing. Or tell him that you are celibate or vegetarian. "How do you live?!" So you have to keep that in mind when you're dealing with people.

SITHU: So not everybody is ready for Krishna consciousness?

HANSADUTTA: No, no, because—

SITHU: How do you know who's ready for what?

HANSADUTTA: As you come in touch with the public, friends, relatives and people you've never seen before, you will learn by just being very observant about how your words affect them. You will learn to read people. And after they have said one sentence, two sentences, you will know where they are. Prabhupada oftentimes asked, "So what is your philosophy?" And no one... there is nothing a person likes more than to get a chance to tell you what his philosophy is. So it's a good thing to do. "Hey, what's your name? Where do you come from? Oh, you're from Singapore? That's nice. What's your... you know, so what's your philosophy?" Without having to tell him what yours is, and that person will tell you what his philosophy is. And then, it's up to you to decide how to deal with that person, how to present, or if you even want to attempt to present. And that takes practice. There are really no formulas.

But one thing you should always remember is that unless a person... unless you can actually bring a person to the understanding that he is not the body and that he is the soul within the body and give very graphic, concrete, simple but concrete examples which he can see and understand—"Okay, I got it!"—unless that happens, there is not much use in telling him anything else. Like Christians, for example, I don't think they understand they are not the body. They don't ever think of it. It's amazing. It's such a simple thing, and yet no one ever comes to that very specific distinction—"I am not the body, I am the soul, and therefore, because I am not the body, I shouldn't waste my time." For us it's very simple, but for most people it's a very, very far out thing to deal with.

SITHU: Christians believe they have a soul.

HANSADUTTA: Well, the Christians have one concept, at least one group does, that you go in the grave at some time there is a rapture and everybody comes out of the grave and goes up into the air.

SITHU: What about reincarnation in the Bible? We could point that out to people.

HANSADUTTA: How do you tell people? They don't have... you see, Christianity first of all has one book, and in that book very little is really intelligent. I read the Bible, and I can't make heads or tails of what is going on with this book! [laughing] The gospels, Ecclesiastics... And I don't know how many people have interpreted what Revelations means. They make these sitcoms and make a lot of money over it.

The best thing is really not to enter into it, because you're only giving them credibility where they don't really have any credibility. It's like bickering over change with a counterfeiter. [laughing] A man is buying everything with counterfeit money, and you're bickering over change. It's all counterfeit. It has no real substance. You can't deal with it. It just doesn't have any disciplic succession. I mean, who is in the disciplic succession of Jesus? If I ask any Christian, "Well, who is your apostle? Who baptized you? Who initiated you? And who initiated them? And show me how he goes back to Jesus? Show me how he's one of those 12 disciples or eleven or whatever." There's not a man on this earth who could tell you that. So what are we dealing with? Do you understand? It's best not to disturb them. Leave them be and encourage them, "You follow Jesus? You follow him. Great. We're not competing. We are simply teaching this. If you're interested, we can discuss. But if you want to argue, we don't want to argue. We accept Jesus, and we are glad that you follow Jesus, and we follow Jesus, too. But we also follow Krishna. And whatever Jesus taught is there in Krishna, but there are other things. If you are interested, then we can talk, but we are not even going to argue. That would be a waste of time."

SITHU: Mental block.

HANSADUTTA: Yes. We have to make people understand, that's all. Not by arguing or overwhelming them with our wisdom or quotes or whatever, but by statements which they can understand. And when you see you are dealing with someone who cannot, no matter what you say, who is seeing you as the devil... I know, because I was in Berkeley in the '60's, and there were so many new-age, born-again Christian groups roaming all over like bandits, and they'd just like come upon you, "You've got the devil in your heart, brother. Do you accept Jesus?" [laughter] Yes, they see everybody as the devil, and so whatever you say is just confirming what they are seeing. If you say, "It's a nice day," they're going to see that you are full of hell brimstone and hell fire. What we used to do in Berkeley when these groups would come upon us... we'd be out there doing sankirtan, and all of a sudden one guy—his name was Hubert, a red-haired, completely freckled face which looked like somebody threw a handful of mud on him—he just started raving about the devil and so on. So I took a kirtan party and called all the collectors back and we would just go around that person and have kirtan so loud that you couldn't hear a single word he said. It was like he was in a silent movie. And people would see it and understand that this guy is bonkers. And after some time, he disappeared. But I would never argue with him. We found in Sri Lanka... the Buddhists here are different, but the Sri Lanka Buddhists are so unresponsive. I mean, you could be talking to that chair. They are totally into zero, and they want to be there. "You are in a wrong understanding." That was their famous line.

SITHU: Dry hearts.

HANSADUTTA: Yes.

SITHU: Completely dried out.

HANSADUTTA: In Srimad-Bhagavatam it explains that the hearer must be enthusiastic to hear, and the speaker must be enthusiastic to speak, and the combination of these two enthusiasts—one who wants to hear and one who wants to speak—Krishna manifests there. Like a match and a striker—fire will come. They have to have some... like that lady, we went to that lady's house. Ordinary lady, but she wants. People were coming, and they had some willingness to hear. And we wanted to chant and tell something about Krishna. And it was a very nice program. When that is repeated, after some years, that lady... who knows where that lady will be? Maybe her whole house will be full of "Krishnas" and "Prabhupadas" [deities of Krishna and Prabhupada]. You see? It's a gradual process of culturing devotion, and it depends on association with devotees. Association with devotees.

All the devotees, in the early days, were made by close association. A devotee would just... once he latched onto you, he would just badger you until you either gave up or ran away. They were just totally into it. Like the Sunday Feast. It was a tactic that when a guest came, every devotee would zero in on him, sit down next to that person, and some people became devotees. Some people didn't. Association, by association. Sometimes moving in with people. Always association.

But the whole Interfaith thing immediately gives the Christians a certain credence which they actually don't deserve, a certain credibility which they don't have and don't deserve. And when you give it to them, you're just defeating yourself. Like a cop giving a robber a gun. I find it self-defeating. I think it's best to—

BHIMA: Paramahamsa and others were really into it with this Indian tribe or something. They were smoking pipes and using the sweat lodge.

HANSADUTTA: Just like in school there are different classes. There are kindergarten, grade school, junior high, high school, university. You cannot expect all students to be in one class, in one school. You have got to have distinctions that this person, okay, let him be in a sweat lodge, but I don't want, why should I go into the sweat lodge? He needs to be there, but I don't need to be there. Leave him there. Not everyone can take up Krishna consciousness. Prabhupada said that. Not everyone. It's for a highly intelligent person who is prepared. Not everybody.

SITHU: [inaudible]

HANSADUTTA: Yes. The whole Interfaith thing... they drift so far from the standard thing that after a while you can't tell what is what anymore. It's not good for the newcomer, and it's not good for the person who is doing it, and it's not what Prabhupada taught us to do. He was like "Take it or leave it." Like a gold merchant. He has his shop, and if you want to buy gold, "This is the price. If you can go somewhere else and get it cheaper, let me know, and I'll buy some too." That's what Krishna consciousness is. It's standard. It's a standard science, and it is backed by logic, reason, argument, authority of shastras and disciplic succession. Sadhu, guru, shastras. And if we subject ourselves to all these vague, sentimental, fanatic, unauthorized faiths, we're just defeating ourselves. We shouldn't expect hundreds of followers. There are so many Christian groups, but what is their platform of association? Do they follow any principles? Do they refrain from meat, fish, eggs? Do they give up intoxicants? Are they free from illicit sex and gambling? Do they get up early in the morning and chant 16 rounds? And if not, then why do you want to give them so much... you call it Interfaith, but you are putting yourself in their orbit.

SITHU: So it's like you said if a person goes to buy gold and someone offers him a cheaper price.

HANSADUTTA: Right. How can it be? You should know right away there's something wrong. Gold is gold. I don't have to sell it. I've got it. If you don't want it, it's okay, but I have gold, so I'm okay. I'm offering to share with you. We should always remember that our... in other words, we are not... we cannot offer someone Krishna consciousness at a discount, like gurus initiating people for two rounds. Where does that come from? [laughing] Discount.

SITHU: I think people would appreciate this if they only knew what it really is, but what they've seen of Krishna devotees here scares them off, because they can't see themselves that way, their lives don't fit...

HANSADUTTA: There is a way to present, and that is the... Prabhupada said art, the art of preaching. And he gave the example of two men going to the same medical school, same professor, same books, everything same. They graduate, and one opens a practice here, one opens a practice there. Now one man's office is always full of patients, and the other man has no patients. Why? He said it was the art of applying medicine. Just to know the books, the textbook is not enough. There's an art, and that art cannot be learned from the book. That art is learned by practice. And we must learn the art of presenting our conclusions without diluting them, so that people can accept them. People who are normally unwilling to accept them will accept them. That is what the art of preaching is all about. Not that we have to camouflage our conclusions and feign appreciation for conclusions which are bogus just to get near. That's not the way. Like Prabhupada, he was uncompromising, and yet he attracted us, because he knew the art. He knows the art, and our business is to learn the art how to do it. And that comes by practice. And that means you make mistakes. You go out there and say something, and the guy will get blown away. But we are practicing. We are practicing preaching Krishna consciousness.

I think now that we have done so many things, at the airport, collecting money and done all kinds of things, I mean ultimately it always comes down to a one-to-one experience. I like to go to people's homes. I like to go and chant Hare Krishna, explain a little something, distribute prasadam and chant a little more. That is very, very... I mean, who ever comes to anybody's home except...? I mean, who ever comes into someone's home? Maybe in Singapore they do, but like a robot coming there, watching your family members, or your relatives—and your relatives don't come. People generally don't come. And especially like we are, chanting and speaking something spiritual. That's a very, very intense and powerful experience, and when that is repeated on a regular basis, that will transform people. And as they grow, in time their faith will grow so that they will think of conducting the meeting and inviting or going to someone else. In other words, it will spill over. But let's face it. It's small. Prabhupada... his coming and moving through the world was something we will never, never see the likes of again. And he captured all the far-out people. He just captured them and sent them off. But we have to deal with people in this way. We have to deal with them in their own castle or on their own ground and somehow or other bring them to light. Occasionally there will be some devotees who are not... they don't have any wife or children, and they will join and be brahmacharis and make their life a life of teaching, or preaching Krishna consciousness. But for the most part, people will stay where they are. They will stay where they are, and gradually. Although it sounds slow, it has tremendous potential, because every person has a circle of friends and associates that he must deal with, and if every person can affect one other person, that's already big.

SITHU: That will double the effect.

HANSADUTTA: Yes, because that person also has his own circle, and he inevitably will affect them. And it all depends on how we deal with the original people, the original group. How we deal with them. If we are consistent, if we maintain purity, and if we artfully awaken them to Krishna consciousness. Just like a match. One match can bring down the whole forest. That's all it takes. Prabhupada was one person. Prabhupada was one single person. And he had twelve very fired-up, dedicated men—his GBC men, who were for the most part householders. I think with the exception of Tamal and one or two others. Anyway, there were just one or two who were brahmacharis and sannyasis. These twelve people went to different parts of the world. I went to Germany, Madhudvisa went to Australia, Sudama went to Japan, Tamal was in India, Shyamasundar was in Europe. They expanded the mission. And that same principle holds true today.

Right now, most of the activity that this movement concerns itself with is getting money. Like Sundar... it's only money. He's not really concerned with teaching anyone Krishna consciousness. He knows the philosophy and arguments, and he can roll it off the tip of his tongue, but that's not what preaching is. Preaching is a deep, heartfelt concern for the person, just like Das looks after the baby. She is totally conscious of that baby. As soon as that baby makes a peep, Das is alert, wondering, "What's happening there?" A tooth is coming in, or temperature goes up a little bit, and she is completely aware. And preaching means to be completely aware of that person's existence, internal and external, and to bring him to life. That's what preaching is. The easiest part of preaching is to explain. The hard part is actually to... just like he just thought about having a baby and impregnating a woman. Well, anyone can do that. But when the baby comes out, then that's where the work begins. So once you come in touch with someone and he wants to hear about Krishna, that's nice. But as they begin to awaken to it and respond, you have to be available so that they don't fall back and slide back.